Proper Thermal Gradient?

Ariel Perez

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Hello Tortoise Forum members2016-06-28 21.30.38.jpg ,

I have 2 baby sulcatas. I just obtained them about 2 weeks ago.

I been running my lights and heat sources and been very observant about the humidity levels and the hot and cool sides.

I've noticed the "cool" side being at 100 degrees and the hot side at like 107. I've read these tortoises are hardy but Im worried regardless. I feel that the difference between hot and cool side should be more around 15 degrees? Am I correct in thinking this? I live in San Fernando Valley here in California and its been really hot lately. It could be that I keep them in our garage and it gets warmer than usual. I have been soaking daily and misting 1-2 times a day to keep himidity above 80% although sometimes drops to about 65%.

Any one run into the "too hot" conditions? or have any experience with these tortoises here in SoCaL?

Please help
 

keepergale

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If your thermometer is accurate you are keeping it too hot.
 

keepergale

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How large is your cage? If it isn't big enough it may be pretty hard to have much temperature gradient.
With good humidity never have less than 80 degrees. They need mid 80s or more to digest their food. What kind of lighting are you using?
FYI having two tortoises together is usually a recipe for one of the tortoises to die. They don't usually do well as pairs.
 

Ariel Perez

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Those temps have been worse case. For example today was a solid 100 on the hot side and 92 on the cool side, it's tough getting a greater difference.

I keep these babies in their own tanks because I've read about sulcatas not doing so well in pairs. Each tank is a 40 gallon tank (for the time being)

I use a 10.0 uvb flood bulb and I use a 100w basking lamp during the day. At night I have those two switch off and an infrared red kicks on to keep the warm temps up. My mind set was that as long a s a good humid hide was provided and a good humidity level, with.daily soakings, these guys should be ok but now I'm concerned. Maybe it's getting too hot and they have nowhere to run to drop down at least 10 degrees.
 

Yvonne G

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You say the UVB bulb is a "flood." Flood lights put out a lot of heat, and add to that you're also using a 'basking' bulb. In my opinion you have too many heat producing lights over those tanks. Can we please see a picture of the lights so I can be sure we're talking about the same thing?
 

Ariel Perez

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2016-06-29 08.22.48.png
2016-06-29 08.23.26.png 2016-06-29 08.25.11.jpg

I'm sorry. That's not exactly what I was talking about. I have the vocabulary mixed. It's just a regular uvb bulb. I use the infrared heat lamp while they sleep.

Even now at 830 am the cool side reads 80 degrees and the warm side is at 89 ish .

This means that at the hottest part of the day, it will probably be like 105 warm side and 97 cool side.
 
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keepergale

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You are operating with a narrow margin of safety. A extra warm day could push your temperatures to lethal levels.
Do you use thermostats on your lights? No space in the house where it is no doubt cooler for your tanks?
Instead of the infrared night light you could get a Ceramic Heat Emitter. They keep it warm at night but don't produce any light.
 

Tom

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You've got a mix of things going on here. For clarification I will number each point.
1. Spot bulbs are not good. They concentrate too much carapace desiccating heat in one spot.
2. Infrared or other colored bulbs should not be used. They make things look funny to our tortoise who have better color vision than we do.
3. What size tank are you using? You can't get a good gradient if the tank is too small or your bulbs are too big.
4. Please read this for setting up heating and lighting the right way. Its all explained in there:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
5. Get out of the pet store. Those products are overpriced, and sometimes dangerous. Read this:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
6. If your ambient is climbing into the high 90s, you have too large of a bulb for your enclosure and its too close. Ambient should not drop below 80ish, but its okay if it climbs into the low 90s daily. A ceramic heating element set on a thermostat is the best way to accomplish this.
 

Ariel Perez

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I wasn't aware that there was a difference between a spot bulb and a flood bulb. Im trying to remember if I saw an option for a flood bulb at the pet store. And after reading your article, ill try to find a lower wattage bulb. The 100w may be too strong for this tank although its a 40 gallon tank.
Ill definitely get the CHE instead of the infrared. Any good/cost efficient thermostat switches you would recommend?
 

Tom

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I wasn't aware that there was a difference between a spot bulb and a flood bulb. Im trying to remember if I saw an option for a flood bulb at the pet store. And after reading your article, ill try to find a lower wattage bulb. The 100w may be too strong for this tank although its a 40 gallon tank.
Ill definitely get the CHE instead of the infrared. Any good/cost efficient thermostat switches you would recommend?

Here are a couple that I use and like:
http://www.lllreptile.com/products/13883-zilla-1000-watt-temperature-controller
https://www.hydrofarm.com/p/MTPRTC
Cheap, reliable and easy to use.
 

Ariel Perez

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Now thinking things through a little more. I could probably run that fluorescent UVB 10.0 bulb on a 12 hour timer and have a MVB on a 90 degree thermostat. Considering how hot its been, it would turn on rarely, the UVB it also emits wouldn't be excessive. That way I'm assured temperatures wouldn't exceed the 100 degree and if in case they do drop bellow 90, the MVB would provide extra heat and UVB for a while.

What do you guys think?
 

BrianWI

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I don't like having lights flick on and off, annoying. Not sure a tortoise would like it either.
 

Markw84

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I have a 12.0 ho fluorescent for UVB set to go on 4 hrs per day at mid day along with a double tube regular 6500 k fluorescent on timers for a 15 hour photoperiod for the "background" ambient light. The flourescents put off little heat. I then have my 65 watt incandescent flood for basking on a thermostat set to go off at 92f. Since my enclosure is in a garage it does heat up- yesterday it was108 outside and got to 93 in the garage so I have to watch overheating. This way the basking light will go off as temps rise but won't rise over 95 the hottest day so far. I figure the basking light going off may be like a cloud cover to the tortoise as the main and brightest light comes from the fluorescents. Also have two 100 watt CHE on thermostat at 80f
 

Ariel Perez

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@Markw84 How big is your enclosure? Do you have those two CHE on either side of the enclosure?

I was thinking the same thing as the background fluorescent keeps the place illuminated , the flood bulb would come on for additional light and heat as if the cloud moved out of the way.
 

Markw84

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@Markw84 How big is your enclosure? Do you have those two CHE on either side of the enclosure?

I was thinking the same thing as the background fluorescent keeps the place illuminated , the flood bulb would come on for additional light and heat as if the cloud moved out of the way.
My enclosure is 3' x 8'. Actually has 2 65 watt basking bulbs and 2 100 watt CHE. I also would recommend at least a 14 hr photoperiod especially for more temperate species as photoperiod is a key trigger to hibernate (Brumate) when photoperiod drops below 12.
 

Tom

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You can't run a mercury vapor bulb on a thermostat. Here is another breakdown on the lighting and heating that I did for another member:

"Let me break down the heating and lighting thing. You need three or four elements:
1. Heat. During the day this is best accomplished with 65 watt flood bulbs from the hardware store set on digital timers. These also give some light. Move them higher or lower to get the basking temp under them correct. I buy them in 6 packs, so if they burn out I always have a spare on hand.
2. Light. Sometimes the basking bulb and ambient room light are enough. If not, use a tube style florescent strip light form the hardware store. Run it on the same timer as the heat lamps. Try to get a bulb in the 5000-6500K color range. The more common 2500K color range bulbs look yellowish.
3. Ambient temp maintenance and night heat. Tortoises need it dark at night, but still warm. This is best accomplished with the use of a CHE in a ceramic based fixture. Get the 11" ceramic based domes from Home Depot for all your heat lamps.
4. UV. Best to sun them for an hour two or more times a week. Its okay to skip a few weeks over winter and this will do no harm. Since you live in the frozen North (Okay, Midwest, but its a figure of speech…), you will need to provide some artificial UV. Several options for this:
a. Use a mercury vapor bulb, like the power sun for your basking bulb. Use this in the Home Depot fixture I mentioned, not in a small pet store dome or deep dome. Replace it every fall.
b. Use a long tube type 10.0 florescent bulb. These MUST be mounted no more than 10-12" from the tortoise to be effective.
c. Get an Arcadia 12% HO bulb from lightyourreptiles.com. These are great, but they make a lot of UV. Mount it at least 18" and as much as 26" away from the tortoise and put it on its own timer for only about 4 hours a day."

In your set up use a digital timer from Walmart or the hardware store to run the florescent tube and a lower wattage basking bulb. Then set a thermostat to 80, put the probe on the cool side and plug a ceramic heating element into it.
 

Ariel Perez

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@Tom thank you for the descriptive lighting setup.

A couple questions, the flood bulb is a more cost efficient alternative vs a traditional spot light bulb ?

In this scenario I would need two thermostat switches correct ? One for the heating element and one for the basking lamp/flood bulb ?
 

Tom

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@Tom thank you for the descriptive lighting setup.

A couple questions, the flood bulb is a more cost efficient alternative vs a traditional spot light bulb ?

In this scenario I would need two thermostat switches correct ? One for the heating element and one for the basking lamp/flood bulb ?

Spot bulbs concentrate too much heat into too small of an area. Flood bulbs widen that angle and spread the heat and light out over a greater area, but still direct the heat and light downward, in contrast to a regular round bulb. All these bulbs are smiler in cost.

You only need one thermostat to control the CHE, which controls the minimum background ambient temp and keeps it above 80. This keeps your night temps from dropping too low, and keeps the ambient temp up on any cooler days, like in winter.

The basking lamp will be set on a timer. It should come on around 6:30-7am, and go off around 7-7:30pm. You get the correct temperature under your bulb by adjusting the height of the bulb, or using a rheostat to control the wattage, or using a different wattage bulb. I have had good success with 65 watt flood bulbs, and this is why I suggest them as a starting place. When set at the correct height, they get things warm enough, but usually not too hot, and the lower wattage saves a bit on the electric bill when compared to a 100 watt or 160 watt bulb. Every enclosure is different and that is why we can only make general suggestions. Every person must run their chosen equipment, check the temps, and make adjustments if needed. Then, once you get the tortoise in the enclosure, the tortoise might let you know with their behavior, that further adjustment is needed. For example: If they bask all day and never leave the "warm" side, your ambient or your basking spot might be too cool. Conversely: If the always stay on the "cool" side, things might be too warm overall. This is where observation, temp guns and thermometers come into play. Most of us have to make some tweaks throughout the year as we go from season to season. More wattage in winter, less in summer, for example. Only your thermometer and tortoise can tell you these things. We cannot.
 

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