Possible MBD in Baby Sulcata?

cmacusa3

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You won't be able to keep heat and humidity by just using aluminum foil. I suggest you get a piece of plywood (1" thick) draw a circle from your light lamp, cut it out so you can place the lamp on it. For ventilation, use a drill to put holes through the plywood at both ends. If possible, cut out an opening to be able to add food and clean out yhe enclosure. If you create a door with hinges, that would be best. It's the best way to hold in heat and humidity short of a closed chamber like the ones Tom build for his babies. Have you seen those? If not, I strongly recommend you do. When your baby grows a little bigger, you'll need to consider what enclosure you'll build for your ever growing sulcata. What country/ state do you live, BTW?
My idea was a quick fix, I agree with the above but something needs to be done immediately and yes it will keep the heat and humidity in. I just wouldn't make it a permanent fix.
 
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Kasia

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Here are some photos of the set-up. In his food bowl is some spring-mix from earlier. Thanks! View attachment 192962 View attachment 192963 View attachment 192964 View attachment 192965 View attachment 192966
I would say that for now as small adjustment like lowering the lamps bit into the enclosure will help with both temperature and UV exposure. UV lights, an ordinary one has a low range (check yours on the bulbs box) sometimes you have to put it c.a. just 20 cm above tort to get a decent exposure.
 

sibi

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My idea was a quick fix, I agree with the above but something needs to be done immediately and yes it will keep the heat and humidity in. I just wouldn't make it a permanent fix.
I guess it's better than what she has now. But, it's not for permanent use, like you said. The bottom line is that nothing she can do will hold in the heat and humidity like a closed chamber. Having said that, I raised a couple of sullies using wood and Plexiglas, and it never held humidity 100%. I have, however used a fogger 24/7 allowing some humidity to escape and it still gave my torts 70-80% humidity most of the time. A fogger is expensive, but a necessity when you have a tank for an enclosure. It cost about $70. If the OP gets one, I would make sure I keep the receipt in case it fails. You can either get a refund or an exchange if within the year warranty. The first two I bought fail just after a year! The last one I bought still works. I've used it for two torts now. I've placed it in storage, but if the OP wants it, she can send me a personal message and I can get it shipped to her.
 

cait_lr

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Yes he will still get some air. You have to close this thing off. I would recommend keeping those lights on to keep it warm until you can close it up and get some night heat. Place him under the log just to keep it dark for him. It's a must you read those care sheets in the Sulcata section on the forum.

You won't be able to keep heat and humidity by just using aluminum foil. I suggest you get a piece of plywood (1" thick) draw a circle from your light lamp, cut it out so you can place the lamp on it. For ventilation, use a drill to put holes through the plywood at both ends. If possible, cut out an opening to be able to add food and clean out the enclosure. If you create a door with hinges, that would be best. It's the best way to hold in heat and humidity short of a closed chamber like the ones Tom build for his babies. Have you seen those? If not, I strongly recommend you do. When your baby grows a little bigger, you'll need to consider what enclosure you'll build for your ever growing sulcata. What country/ state do you live, BTW?

I put this little aluminum foil lid together just now. Is this what you guys mean? I just spent half an hour trying to cut the metal holes with a pair of scissors, haha. There are now random shards of metal on my floor that I have to clean up, hopefully before I step on them. 15218306_343822999319147_1673157341_n.jpg 15209079_343823002652480_619952059_n.jpg

As for the plywood, I don't have any on me right now, but I will try to put that together sometime this week. Hopefully this foil cover works until then. :) Thank you for the suggestion! I will take a look at Tom's. Also, sibi, I live in Illinois.

Edit: I just placed the foil lid on top. It's been about 5 minutes and the glass is already beginning to fog up like crazy. Is this normal?

Edit 2: Oh my goodness!! He's moving!! For the first time in days! I'm so excited, I can't contain myself. Thank you guys so much!
 
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sibi

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I put this little aluminum foil lid together just now. Is this what you guys mean? I just spent half an hour trying to cut the metal holes with a pair of scissors, haha. There are now random shards of metal on my floor that I have to clean up, hopefully before I step on them. View attachment 192967 View attachment 192968

As for the plywood, I don't have any on me right now, but I will try to put that together sometime this week. Hopefully this foil cover works until then. :) Thank you for the suggestion! I will take a look at Tom's. Also, sibi, I live in Illinois. :)

Edit: I just placed the foil lid on top. It's been about 5 minutes and the glass is already beginning to fog up like crazy. Is this normal?
Would you like my fogger? It has worked like a charm pumping a misty fog into the tank. Humidity levels will definitely be high. But, you will need to make sure the heat is there or else your baby can get a respiratory infection. Remember, warm and humid = good; cold and humid= bad.
 

sibi

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I put this little aluminum foil lid together just now. Is this what you guys mean? I just spent half an hour trying to cut the metal holes with a pair of scissors, haha. There are now random shards of metal on my floor that I have to clean up, hopefully before I step on them. View attachment 192967 View attachment 192968

As for the plywood, I don't have any on me right now, but I will try to put that together sometime this week. Hopefully this foil cover works until then. :) Thank you for the suggestion! I will take a look at Tom's. Also, sibi, I live in Illinois.

Edit: I just placed the foil lid on top. It's been about 5 minutes and the glass is already beginning to fog up like crazy. Is this normal?

Edit 2: Oh my goodness!! He's moving!! For the first time in days! I'm so excited, I can't contain myself. Thank you guys so much!
What are the temps now? And, for nights, you really need to invest in a 100 w ceramic heat emitter (CHE). This will keep him warm at night and he'll be able to sleep. You see, with a light on all night, your baby can't sleep well. He's been exhausted not sleeping well because of the cold and/or light. Poor baby!
 

cait_lr

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Would you like my fogger? It has worked like a charm pumping a misty fog into the tank. Humidity levels will definitely be high. But, you will need to make sure the heat is there or else your baby can get a respiratory infection. Remember, warm and humid = good; cold and humid= bad.

Oh, thank you for the kind offer. I think it will be alright, as long as I keep moistening his substrate & keeping his temperatures up. After putting on the aluminum foil lid, I can already notice a huge difference, with his glass fogging up right away.
He is now walking around and I'm just so relieved. I can now sleep soundly tonight. :) Thank you again for the help.
 

cait_lr

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What are the temps now? And, for nights, you really need to invest in a ceramic heat emitter (CHE). This will keep him warm ay night and he'll be able to sleep. You see, with a light on all night, your baby can't sleep well. He's been exhausted noy sleeping well because of the cold and/or light. Poor baby!

Oh, I feel awful now. How horrible I've been to poor Hubert. A trip to the pet store is in due time!
The temperature is currently at around 88 degrees overall, about a 6 degree increase from before. His basking spot is now at 100, and the night temp is TBD.
 

sibi

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Oh, thank you for the kind offer. I think it will be alright, as long as I keep moistening his substrate & keeping his temperatures up. After putting on the aluminum foil lid, I can already notice a huge difference, with his glass fogging up right away.
He is now walking around and I'm just so relieved. I can now sleep soundly tonight. :) Thank you again for the help.
I guess you'll need to keep yhe light on all night, right? Just know that your baby isn't sleeping fully. He'll be tired from lack of good sleep. But, if you get a Che, he'll not only be more active, but he'll eat more too.
 

cait_lr

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I guess you'll need to keep yhe light on all night, right? Just know that your baby isn't sleeping fully. He'll be tired from lack of good sleep. But, if you get a Che, he'll not only be more active, but he'll eat more too.

I usually turn the lights off at night. Hopefully with the foil cover on, some of the heat will be contained until morning. I will try to get a che asap. Thanks!
 

JoesMum

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-Daily soaks, around 10-15 minutes
-Diet consists of mostly grass, weeds, spring mix, and the occasional kale, cucumber & carrots. Calcium supplement is added around once or twice a week.

Thank you everyone.
Sorry if I am repeating advice you have already had.

Soaks should be for a minimum of 20 minutes.

A tiny pinch of calcium powder should be sprinkled on food three times a week , but no more as you can overdo it. ("once or twice" isn't enough)

Sulcatas cannot digest sugars in food properly - they cause digestive and kidney problems - so sweet foods like carrot, bell pepper, tomato and fruit shod only be fed very sparingly and very occasionally... if at all.
 

cmacusa3

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I put this little aluminum foil lid together just now. Is this what you guys mean? I just spent half an hour trying to cut the metal holes with a pair of scissors, haha. There are now random shards of metal on my floor that I have to clean up, hopefully before I step on them. View attachment 192967 View attachment 192968

As for the plywood, I don't have any on me right now, but I will try to put that together sometime this week. Hopefully this foil cover works until then. :) Thank you for the suggestion! I will take a look at Tom's. Also, sibi, I live in Illinois.

Edit: I just placed the foil lid on top. It's been about 5 minutes and the glass is already beginning to fog up like crazy. Is this normal?

Edit 2: Oh my goodness!! He's moving!! For the first time in days! I'm so excited, I can't contain myself. Thank you guys so much!
Yes this should work for a quick fix. I can post a few pics of the plywood idea if you need. I use plywood for my small tanks for my box turtle babies. Yes fogging up is normal and that's what you want
 

Tom

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All the advice given above about improving the enclosure and temps is good advice. But I'm not sure it addresses what is going on with your tortoise. See the big notch between the scutes of your baby's carapace? That is an indication that he/she was started too dry in his/her first few days and weeks before you got him/her. Sadly, this is typical in our country. Most of the care info out there is based on 30 year old, incorrect assumptions about how this species lives in the wild, and its wrong. This is not a "desert" species and dry conditions do not suit them. They hatch during the start of the hot, wet, rainy, humid, monsoon season, and these are the conditions we need to be attempting to simulate for them to flourish. During the dry season, they are underground in warm, damp burrows.

Read this for a better explanation of what is likely going on there:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

I hate breaking this news to people, but I figure it is better to know, than not know.

Some of them make it though and survive with good care, and some don't. The point is to do your best and hope for the best, but don't be surprised if your baby does not make it. Hope for the best and expect the worst. Also, no amount of spending money or vet care can fix this, if significant kidney damage was done before you even got this baby. So let your mind be at ease. If you had a billion dollars in your pocket and assembled the best team of veterinarians in the entire world, it would not save a baby that is too damaged from its early care after hatching.

Wishing you the best of luck.
 

cait_lr

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All the advice given above about improving the enclosure and temps is good advice. But I'm not sure it addresses what is going on with your tortoise. See the big notch between the scutes of your baby's carapace? That is an indication that he/she was started too dry in his/her first few days and weeks before you got him/her. Sadly, this is typical in our country. Most of the care info out there is based on 30 year old, incorrect assumptions about how this species lives in the wild, and its wrong. This is not a "desert" species and dry conditions do not suit them. They hatch during the start of the hot, wet, rainy, humid, monsoon season, and these are the conditions we need to be attempting to simulate for them to flourish. During the dry season, they are underground in warm, damp burrows.

Read this for a better explanation of what is likely going on there:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

I hate breaking this news to people, but I figure it is better to know, than not know.

Some of them make it though and survive with good care, and some don't. The point is to do your best and hope for the best, but don't be surprised if your baby does not make it. Hope for the best and expect the worst. Also, no amount of spending money or vet care can fix this, if significant kidney damage was done before you even got this baby. So let your mind be at ease. If you had a billion dollars in your pocket and assembled the best team of veterinarians in the entire world, it would not save a baby that is too damaged from its early care after hatching.

Wishing you the best of luck.

Oh no.... So there isn't anything I can do? ):
 

Yvonne G

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I don't think this has been said here before: Screen filters out most of the UVB rays. There should be no screen between the UVB light and the habitat.
 

Tom

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Oh no.... So there isn't anything I can do? ):

What you can do is daily soaks, the right foods, perfect environmental conditions and load on heaps of hope. As I said, some of them pull through. You just shouldn't feel like it is your fault if this one doesn't. It would be the breeders fault and it would be awesome if you could explain this to them and get them to understand. Or get them to come here, and we will explain it.
 

sibi

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Based on the realities of Tom's statements, most of us that own sulcatas who have had health issues with them will enjoy a few years or decades at best. It's a harsh reality that I'm having to get grips of especially since I've cared for one that I adopted with severe MBD. The first two that I received from a friend started out in cold, dry conditions. I have the resources to give them the best care, but I know deep inside that one day, perhaps before they're 20 years old, one or all will die despite the great care they're receiving now. I hope you can help your tort live a comfortable life and enjoy your time with him.
 

cait_lr

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What you can do is daily soaks, the right foods, perfect environmental conditions and load on heaps of hope. As I said, some of them pull through. You just shouldn't feel like it is your fault if this one doesn't. It would be the breeders fault and it would be awesome if you could explain this to them and get them to understand. Or get them to come here, and we will explain it.

Okay, thank you ): Oh, gosh I'm so worried right now. Right now he's eating (thankfully.) But I'll have to continue to soak him and pray that he makes it.
 

cait_lr

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Day 2 Update:

I've had my eye on him all day today. He has been mostly sleeping, but he did, however, get up and eat some spring mix three times today, which is a lot more than usual. I soaked him in warm water twice for around 20 minutes, once in the morning and once in the evening. I also soaked him in some Gerbers baby food (the Yam kind) for a little over half an hour.

His overall temp is around 90 degrees, and the foil is doing a great job of keeping the humidity in. I hope he recovers soon. Lots of prayers have been sent today.

15228022_344187852615995_1184529259_n.jpg
 
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