Population types of red and yellow foots

[Kapidolo Farms]

Red- and yellow-footed tortoises, Chelonoidis carbonariaand C. denticulata (Reptilia: Testudines: Testudinidae), in South American savannahs and forests: do their phylogeographies reflect distinct habitats?
paper attached

This earlier thread that brought this article to TFO is closed. I mention it as I am not bringing something new here, but hope to renew conversation.

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/g...of-you-might-be-interested.28735/#post-269375

I notice a couple of things.

1) On page 8, the image of the two redfoots side by side shows the more oval shape and muted contrast of the southern type, in contrast to images I see here on TFO of 'Bolivian's' with the distinct yellow areola in each scute but no 'barbell' shape. That could tend to indicate that the more northern 'Chaco' type are less derived than more northern populations, from the more southern 'Chaco' type.

To travel a linear distance along this transect and perform both a physical record and genetic analysis, I don't know if the genetic analysis tools exits to parse that out?

2) The team of authors do not address the 'giant yellowfoots' that do exist. Does any one have any awareness of a paper on this topic?

 

[TammyJ]

For some reason I can't get to see the article...not that I could contribute anything intelligent, but just interested....Hah!!! Found it.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Really big redfoot.

 

[Anyfoot]

@domalle.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/huge-redfoot.2647/#post-22926

An earlier post of that museum specimen.

 

[domalle]

@domalle.

Direct everyone to the South American forum thread from 04-30-2013 RE: Massive redfoots? Like....Giants???
The misidentified picture unfortunately keeps popping up. It was taken at a facility in Venezuela and there was some argument about it.
It is the shell of a yellowfoot which occurs naturally there in very large sizes.

 

[Anyfoot]

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/massive-redfoots-like-giants.70359/#post-661618

Is this the thread @domalle

What about the giant Bolivians?
There is much confusion on these GIANTS. How big do they grow to and what parts of the SA region do they actually exist?
As I’m understanding it we have Bolivians and Paraguayans that are classed as Chaco’s. Is that correct? Also do they border into Northern Argentina?

 

[domalle]

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/massive-redfoots-like-giants.70359/#post-661618

Is this the thread @domalle

What about the giant Bolivians?
There is much confusion on these GIANTS. How big do they grow to and what parts of the SA region do they actually exist?
As I’m understanding it we have Bolivians and Paraguayans that are classed as Chaco’s. Is that correct? Also do they border into Northern Argentina?

Yes, that's the thread. There are others with discussion of the same picture.
The record Chacoan was an almost two foot (59.3 cm) Paraguayan specimen, since deceased, in a facility in Filadelfia, Paraguay. The Gran Chaco stretches from the Rio Paraguay in North Argentina and Paraguay over Bolivia and on into the Andes. Thomas and Sabine Vinke studied the animals in Paraguay. From their article in the German publication Radiata titled 'The turtle and tortoise fauna of the central Chaco of Paraguay': "The precipitation steadily decreases from the east to the west. This is also indicated by the vegetation. Palm savannas with marshland dominate the landscape in the east whereas cactus and dry forest with thorn bushes, which shed their foliage, characterize the central and western Chaco."

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Yes, that's the thread. There are others with discussion of the same picture.
The record Chacoan was an almost two foot (59.3 cm) Paraguayan specimen, since deceased, in a facility in Filadelfia, Paraguay. The Gran Chaco stretches from the Rio Paraguay in North Argentina and Paraguay over Bolivia and on into the Andes. Thomas and Sabine Vinke studied the animals in Paraguay. From their article in the German publication Radiata titled 'The turtle and tortoise fauna of the central Chaco of Paraguay': "The precipitation steadily decreases from the east to the west. This is also indicated by the vegetation. Palm savannas with marshland dominate the landscape in the east whereas cactus and dry forest with thorn bushes, which shed their foliage, characterize the central and western Chaco."

That the source page calls it a redfoot sorta ads to the confusion. What diagnostic other than location of the museum is directed the identity to yellow-foot?
This image to be less ambiguous. http://www.uta.edu/biology/herpetology/Venezuela 2006.htm

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Following are two cut and paste of breeders saying they have the larger phenotype, there may be others, these are on the first page of google hits.

http://www.theturtlesource.com/i.asp?id=225689795&p=Bolivian-Cherry-Headed-Red-Footed-Tortoises

Bolivian Cherry Headed Red Footed Tortoises: Geochelone Carbonaria

Category: Rare & Exotic

Experience Level: Starter [?]

Care Sheet: Red-Footed / Yellow-Footed Tortoise



Description

Bolivian Cherry Headed Red Footed Tortoises are closely related to the Cherry Heads from Paraguay. Found in the Bolivian Chaco, and originally brought to the US in the 1980s, the Bolivian version is the giant of the Red Foot world. Some of our adult breeders are actually 18 inches long. Because Cherry Heads from Bolivia have genetic influence from the more typical form of Red Foots found in Bolivia's lowland jungles, their color variation is great. Some are light, some dark and some have nicely contrasting colors - some have deeper red/orange heads and legs, others have more of a peach colored head and legs that becomes even more striking as they grow. All Bolivian Cherry Heads have distinct spotting in the center of their scutes - similar to Leopard Tortoises.

Our's are 3rd and 4th generation Americans, and grow up to be both beautiful and impressively large. If you're looking for a nice, large, predator proof tortoise that can share a summer pen with larger Sulcattas, Burmese Mountain Tortoises or even Aldabras, this is your tortoise. Their care and husbandry is essentially the same as for normal Red Footed Tortoises and follows:

Red-footed Tortoises are the inhabitants of the exotic Jungles of the Caribbean, central and south America. They are quite intelligent, they have good memory and learn rapidly where and when food is available; and where shelter and basking is to be found. They have a strong sense of smell, and their sense of touch includes even the slightest contact with their shell.

Grasses, clover hay, dark, leafy greens, (except for spinach) cactus, carrots and mixed vegetables are all good for Red-footed Tortoises. Sweet, red fruits are their favorites. Supplements that are high in calcium and low in phosphorus, are best for this hearty species.

Red-footed Tortoises do very well in community settings. With a little extra care, hatchlings thrive with other tortoises. Shallow, warm water soaking every third day, a warm basking spot and plenty of food is the key for these pretty starter tortoises.

Red-footed Tortoises are one of the most popular species kept the world over - and once you begin working with them, it's easy to see why.


https://www.floridaiguana.com/Tortoises/Red-Foot



Red Foot

Family:

Tortoise

Genus:

Red Foot

Photos


Bolivians are the biggest Redfoots. There are many different color variations, many people believe color is the determining factor for specifying “Bolivian” I have always believed it was size. You can see from the pictures I have some animals that are very Black and some that are Very Red you can also see their Plastrons are very black, another aspect people believe spells "Bolivian"

Back in the eighties when these animals were coming in to Miami from South America, I was there when the shipments came in.

Back then you could really see the size difference of these animals. My Breeding stock came from these animals.

In fact I still have these animals. The Adults are over 25 pounds and 18” they are huge.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

...and an interesting paper, no pictures though.

 

[domalle]

That the source page calls it a redfoot sorta ads to the confusion. What diagnostic other than location of the museum is directed the identity to yellow-foot?
This image to be less ambiguous. http://www.uta.edu/biology/herpetology/Venezuela 2006.htm

Without firsthand inspection of the shell in the facility in Venezuela, especially the undershell and inguinal scutes, I suppose this identification may continue to be a matter of dispute. The two species have been confused historically in zoos, aquariums and museums going back many years and continues to this day. The high dome indicates yellowfoot to me. More than that in the picture though is the extension of the gular scutes beyond the above anterior portion of the top shell. Not typically seen in redfoots.

Websites can not always be counted on as reputable sources. I find a lot of the information questionable. Some is just rehashed misinformation.
"Red-footed Tortoises are the inhabitants of the exotic Jungles of the Caribbean, central and south America."
"Bolivian Cherry Headed Red Footed Totoises are closely related to the Cherry Heads from Paraguay."
Exotic jungles sound flowery but redfoots come from many different kinds of habitat. And the idea that the popular Cherryhead form of Red-Footed tortoise comes from Paraguay has long been dismissed.

While some of the large tortoises in Bolivia are reported to have a range of head coloration including red, that does not qualify them as close kin to the distinct red-headed animals from semi-arid areas of Brazil that have come to be commonly known as 'Cherryheads'. But I suppose any Redfoot with a red head can be marketed that way.

I defer to @cdmay on these issues. I consider him the authority, rarely differ with his information, and enjoy his colorful recollections and descriptions of the early days and the history of many of these original founder animals.

 

[Madkins007]

Domalle makes several good points- even people you would think should know better tend to misidentify red- and yellow-foots, and there seems to be a general sense of 'whats the big deal about the differences' in South America.

The giants are a poorly understood group. Reptiles as a whole tend to grow their entire life. The giants may just be really old perfectly normal tortoises, or there may be populations of a 'giant race'- although I tend to lean towards the 'really old' school.

As for photos that may be different races/species/subspecies- we have to remember that even if there ARE 2-5 groups, that there is a ton of variation within each group. After all, a collection of box turtles from the same collection site will vary greatly, and the regions for the redfoot groups are huge!

 

[Flores93k]

@Will i have purchased this from them I can show you pictures if you like

Following are two cut and paste of breeders saying they have the larger phenotype, there may be others, these are on the first page of google hits.

http://www.theturtlesource.com/i.asp?id=225689795&p=Bolivian-Cherry-Headed-Red-Footed-Tortoises

Bolivian Cherry Headed Red Footed Tortoises: Geochelone Carbonaria

Category: Rare & Exotic

Experience Level: Starter [?]

Care Sheet: Red-Footed / Yellow-Footed Tortoise



Description

Bolivian Cherry Headed Red Footed Tortoises are closely related to the Cherry Heads from Paraguay. Found in the Bolivian Chaco, and originally brought to the US in the 1980s, the Bolivian version is the giant of the Red Foot world. Some of our adult breeders are actually 18 inches long. Because Cherry Heads from Bolivia have genetic influence from the more typical form of Red Foots found in Bolivia's lowland jungles, their color variation is great. Some are light, some dark and some have nicely contrasting colors - some have deeper red/orange heads and legs, others have more of a peach colored head and legs that becomes even more striking as they grow. All Bolivian Cherry Heads have distinct spotting in the center of their scutes - similar to Leopard Tortoises.

Our's are 3rd and 4th generation Americans, and grow up to be both beautiful and impressively large. If you're looking for a nice, large, predator proof tortoise that can share a summer pen with larger Sulcattas, Burmese Mountain Tortoises or even Aldabras, this is your tortoise. Their care and husbandry is essentially the same as for normal Red Footed Tortoises and follows:

Red-footed Tortoises are the inhabitants of the exotic Jungles of the Caribbean, central and south America. They are quite intelligent, they have good memory and learn rapidly where and when food is available; and where shelter and basking is to be found. They have a strong sense of smell, and their sense of touch includes even the slightest contact with their shell.

Grasses, clover hay, dark, leafy greens, (except for spinach) cactus, carrots and mixed vegetables are all good for Red-footed Tortoises. Sweet, red fruits are their favorites. Supplements that are high in calcium and low in phosphorus, are best for this hearty species.

Red-footed Tortoises do very well in community settings. With a little extra care, hatchlings thrive with other tortoises. Shallow, warm water soaking every third day, a warm basking spot and plenty of food is the key for these pretty starter tortoises.

Red-footed Tortoises are one of the most popular species kept the world over - and once you begin working with them, it's easy to see why.


https://www.floridaiguana.com/Tortoises/Red-Foot



Red Foot

Family:

Tortoise

Genus:

Red Foot

Photos


Bolivians are the biggest Redfoots. There are many different color variations, many people believe color is the determining factor for specifying “Bolivian” I have always believed it was size. You can see from the pictures I have some animals that are very Black and some that are Very Red you can also see their Plastrons are very black, another aspect people believe spells "Bolivian"

Back in the eighties when these animals were coming in to Miami from South America, I was there when the shipments came in.

Back then you could really see the size difference of these animals. My Breeding stock came from these animals.

In fact I still have these animals. The Adults are over 25 pounds and 18” they are huge.

Following are two cut and paste of breeders saying they have the larger phenotype, there may be others, these are on the first page of google hits.

http://www.theturtlesource.com/i.asp?id=225689795&p=Bolivian-Cherry-Headed-Red-Footed-Tortoises

Bolivian Cherry Headed Red Footed Tortoises: Geochelone Carbonaria

Category: Rare & Exotic

Experience Level: Starter [?]

Care Sheet: Red-Footed / Yellow-Footed Tortoise



Description

Bolivian Cherry Headed Red Footed Tortoises are closely related to the Cherry Heads from Paraguay. Found in the Bolivian Chaco, and originally brought to the US in the 1980s, the Bolivian version is the giant of the Red Foot world. Some of our adult breeders are actually 18 inches long. Because Cherry Heads from Bolivia have genetic influence from the more typical form of Red Foots found in Bolivia's lowland jungles, their color variation is great. Some are light, some dark and some have nicely contrasting colors - some have deeper red/orange heads and legs, others have more of a peach colored head and legs that becomes even more striking as they grow. All Bolivian Cherry Heads have distinct spotting in the center of their scutes - similar to Leopard Tortoises.

Our's are 3rd and 4th generation Americans, and grow up to be both beautiful and impressively large. If you're looking for a nice, large, predator proof tortoise that can share a summer pen with larger Sulcattas, Burmese Mountain Tortoises or even Aldabras, this is your tortoise. Their care and husbandry is essentially the same as for normal Red Footed Tortoises and follows:

Red-footed Tortoises are the inhabitants of the exotic Jungles of the Caribbean, central and south America. They are quite intelligent, they have good memory and learn rapidly where and when food is available; and where shelter and basking is to be found. They have a strong sense of smell, and their sense of touch includes even the slightest contact with their shell.

Grasses, clover hay, dark, leafy greens, (except for spinach) cactus, carrots and mixed vegetables are all good for Red-footed Tortoises. Sweet, red fruits are their favorites. Supplements that are high in calcium and low in phosphorus, are best for this hearty species.

Red-footed Tortoises do very well in community settings. With a little extra care, hatchlings thrive with other tortoises. Shallow, warm water soaking every third day, a warm basking spot and plenty of food is the key for these pretty starter tortoises.

Red-footed Tortoises are one of the most popular species kept the world over - and once you begin working with them, it's easy to see why.


https://www.floridaiguana.com/Tortoises/Red-Foot



Red Foot

Family:

Tortoise

Genus:

Red Foot

Photos


Bolivians are the biggest Redfoots. There are many different color variations, many people believe color is the determining factor for specifying “Bolivian” I have always believed it was size. You can see from the pictures I have some animals that are very Black and some that are Very Red you can also see their Plastrons are very black, another aspect people believe spells "Bolivian"

Back in the eighties when these animals were coming in to Miami from South America, I was there when the shipments came in.

Back then you could really see the size difference of these animals. My Breeding stock came from these animals.

In fact I still have these animals. The Adults are over 25 pounds and 18” they are huge.

Following are two cut and paste of breeders saying they have the larger phenotype, there may be others, these are on the first page of google hits.

http://www.theturtlesource.com/i.asp?id=225689795&p=Bolivian-Cherry-Headed-Red-Footed-Tortoises

Bolivian Cherry Headed Red Footed Tortoises: Geochelone Carbonaria

Category: Rare & Exotic

Experience Level: Starter [?]

Care Sheet: Red-Footed / Yellow-Footed Tortoise



Description

Bolivian Cherry Headed Red Footed Tortoises are closely related to the Cherry Heads from Paraguay. Found in the Bolivian Chaco, and originally brought to the US in the 1980s, the Bolivian version is the giant of the Red Foot world. Some of our adult breeders are actually 18 inches long. Because Cherry Heads from Bolivia have genetic influence from the more typical form of Red Foots found in Bolivia's lowland jungles, their color variation is great. Some are light, some dark and some have nicely contrasting colors - some have deeper red/orange heads and legs, others have more of a peach colored head and legs that becomes even more striking as they grow. All Bolivian Cherry Heads have distinct spotting in the center of their scutes - similar to Leopard Tortoises.

Our's are 3rd and 4th generation Americans, and grow up to be both beautiful and impressively large. If you're looking for a nice, large, predator proof tortoise that can share a summer pen with larger Sulcattas, Burmese Mountain Tortoises or even Aldabras, this is your tortoise. Their care and husbandry is essentially the same as for normal Red Footed Tortoises and follows:

Red-footed Tortoises are the inhabitants of the exotic Jungles of the Caribbean, central and south America. They are quite intelligent, they have good memory and learn rapidly where and when food is available; and where shelter and basking is to be found. They have a strong sense of smell, and their sense of touch includes even the slightest contact with their shell.

Grasses, clover hay, dark, leafy greens, (except for spinach) cactus, carrots and mixed vegetables are all good for Red-footed Tortoises. Sweet, red fruits are their favorites. Supplements that are high in calcium and low in phosphorus, are best for this hearty species.

Red-footed Tortoises do very well in community settings. With a little extra care, hatchlings thrive with other tortoises. Shallow, warm water soaking every third day, a warm basking spot and plenty of food is the key for these pretty starter tortoises.

Red-footed Tortoises are one of the most popular species kept the world over - and once you begin working with them, it's easy to see why.


https://www.floridaiguana.com/Tortoises/Red-Foot



Red Foot

Family:

Tortoise

Genus:

Red Foot

Photos


Bolivians are the biggest Redfoots. There are many different color variations, many people believe color is the determining factor for specifying “Bolivian” I have always believed it was size. You can see from the pictures I have some animals that are very Black and some that are Very Red you can also see their Plastrons are very black, another aspect people believe spells "Bolivian"

Back in the eighties when these animals were coming in to Miami from South America, I was there when the shipments came in.

Back then you could really see the size difference of these animals. My Breeding stock came from these animals.

In fact I still have these animals. The Adults are over 25 pounds and 18” they are huge.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

@Will i have purchased this from them I can show you pictures if you like

Images are always welcome everywhere on TFO.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

These two (more specifically the one pictured alone) were suggested as from Suriname. My best guess on the male, lone tortoise in image, is 16 to 18 inches and high 20 pounds. They are in a private zoo, and I could not talk an employee into letting me check them out any closer than through the viewing glass. I initially heard of about 50 pounds, which can not be true, my Manouria by size are much much bigger and they weight 60-70 pounds.

They might be 'impressively large' for their potential geographic range.

The full sun image I took, the others by a friend.

 

[Flores93k]

From turlesource they claim it is a Bolivian Cherry head I’ve been told it’s not either way very pretty in my opinion

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

From what I understand Bolivian redfoots will have much of the plastron colored black. Cherry head is sorta a meaningless term in that many geographic variants can have remarkable red heads and leg scales. Then there is marbling too, which also seems to pop up in many geographic variants.

None-the-less, that a nice looking tortoise.

I have really come to appreciate better redfoots. They seem to have a more 'plucky' personality.

 

[rmn813]

This is a spectacular female from my group. Always wondered where her location of origin is, My best guess is Barbados.

 

[daniellenc]

This is a spectacular female from my group. Always wondered where her location of origin is, My best guess is Barbados.

View attachment 259419

She’s stunning wow!!