Please help, Indian star leg swollen

[CarolM]

I am not sure about adding the water to the syringe (I am presuming you mean with the medicine) as it will dilute the medicine and I don't know if that will effect the strength of said medicine. Maybe try a little water after you have given the meds.

@YvonneG, @Will, @Kasia, @Tom can you guys perhaps give some help here as Kasia you went through this already, so may possibly be able to give more insight. Yvonne, Will and Tom, I thought you would be able to perhaps give some advice with regards to the diet and how to get the balance of fibre, protein and water right. Sorry I could not think of anyone else who has the expertise with regards to good advise far as balancing their diet is concerned and of course with regards to the heat comments above. Thank you.

 

[Lesa]

@YvonneG, @Will, @Kasia, @Tom can you guys perhaps give some help here as Kasia you went through this already, so may possibly be able to give more insight. Yvonne, Will and Tom, I thought you would be able to perhaps give some advice with regards to the diet and how to get the balance of fibre, protein and water right. Sorry I could not think of anyone else who has the expertise with regards to good advise far as balancing their diet is concerned and of course with regards to the heat comments above. Thank you.

Thank you so much. I am just sobbing like an idiot.

 

[CarolM]

Meds won’t be ready until late today. Some special animal pharmacy is putting it together. She said it would be diluted and have an apple flavor. I meant after the meds I could give her some water with the syringe. She has always been a good drinker. I have kept a shallow dish in her enclosure at all times. I think someone on the forums had said no water dish for an Indian Star because of their high domes but I decided to use one. It is more shallow than a clay saucer.

I am just at a loss as to how this happened. I have three other torts who are all healthy. I am crazy obsessive with my care. I wasn’t this fanatical when my son was a baby. I have more gadgets and monitoring devices than I ever did for a newborn. If she needed a new leg I’d take her to a specialist and get her a 3D printed one. I won’t let her suffer but I will also do everything humanly possible to take care of her. I doubled my life insurance so if anything happened to me my son knows half that money is for their care. Like I am nuts over my torts. This is a huge knife to my heart.

You shouldn't beat your self up. We can all see how much you care. It may be that she is more sensitive to what she eats and the ratios needed. I don't think you did anything wrong. Just maybe that the good stuff she is eating might be a little too high in protein levels and she can't handle it. You will probably have to be more careful on the variety you give her than you do your other torts. It might not even be the food, IDK just looking at all possibilities based on what I googled about gout and the things that you can control. What Will said in that other thread makes sense to me. About fibre being needed to move things along in the gut. I think he said something to the effect of without enough fibre to move it, the food (plants) with the higher protein levels will sit there and could possibly contribute to the issue. So if going forward if you know what ratios what has and you feed her accordingly, providing a good balance it won't do any harm and just might do the world of good. Do you by any chance get plantain there as I believe it is supposed to be an execellent source for fibre for them. And sorry for the wrong presumption. If she will take the water, then I can't see why not.

 

[CarolM]

Thank you so much. I am just sobbing like an idiot.

Shame. I know you feel helpless at the moment. But now you know what the problem is hopefully we can all get together and try and help you where we can, with what we know.

 

[daniellenc]

Don't beat yourself up. You saw the problem, went to the vet, paid a ton I'm sure, and are providing meds. Some tortoises are more sensitive than others and you wouldn't know that until something like this happens. Just follow the threads and make a few changes!! And good luck with that sweet baby.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

How people write is as important as the content, when style is stripped away. For me regarding star husbandry @Markw84 's writing works best to communicate much. Maybe Mark would have some POV on husbandry for the OP.

 

[CarolM]

How people write is as important as the content, when style is stripped away. For me regarding star husbandry @Markw84 's writing works best to communicate much. Maybe Mark would have some POV on husbandry for the OP.

Thank you Will.

 

[Lesa]

I picked up the medication that was compounded specifically for her needs. Called allopurinol and she gets .25ml once a day. I’ve asked the vet to send me a copy of the lab report. I’ll start researching diet changes and look for any supplemental care I can provide. If she needs more hydration to help what about cucumbers or watermelon? If she is having trouble getting around to the water dish to drink. I will up her to twice daily soaks. Fingers crossed these meds will help. She has actually gained a couple of grams so at least no weight loss and she is eating.

Thank you to everyone! I would be an even bigger mess without your help.

 

[KarenSoCal]

I picked up the medication that was compounded specifically for her needs. Called allopurinol and she gets .25ml once a day. I’ve asked the vet to send me a copy of the lab report. I’ll start researching diet changes and look for any supplemental care I can provide. If she needs more hydration to help what about cucumbers or watermelon? If she is having trouble getting around to the water dish to drink. I will up her to twice daily soaks. Fingers crossed these meds will help. She has actually gained a couple of grams so at least no weight loss and she is eating.

Thank you to everyone! I would be an even bigger mess without your help.

Allopurinol is also a people med...my husband takes it for gout. Just FYI...
I pray for relief for your baby.

 

[CarolM]

Cucumber I think you could add occassionally but it has to be part of a varied diet. I could be wrong but watermelon i would think has too much sugar. However I am not too clued up on the diet requirements for stars. So maybe wait for someone else who is advise on that.

 

[ascott]

Thank you so much. I am just sobbing like an idiot.

What makes you think that this is your fault? I mean, that is a young tort....likely what ever has shown itself is a result of factors prior to you.....Your set up sounds great....you are a hover craft over the tort and I doubt you are the cause.....also, gout will work itself out, what I mean is that it will go just as it will come from time to time....relax dear. You say you have other torts that are "fine"...so what makes you think you need to take on the responsibility of fault....just the way it goes sometimes....I mean, some folks get diseases and other don't....the tort already has its make up and that has nothing to do with you. Period.

 

[ascott]

Thank you so much. I am just sobbing like an idiot.

Also, I would super research that med and make sure that the side effects are not worse than the small "benefit" it claims to offer.....I mean, this is a wild animal (albeit, confined in a captive situation) and not a human....I would be hesitant...

 

[Kasia]

I picked up the medication that was compounded specifically for her needs. Called allopurinol and she gets .25ml once a day. I’ve asked the vet to send me a copy of the lab report. I’ll start researching diet changes and look for any supplemental care I can provide. If she needs more hydration to help what about cucumbers or watermelon? If she is having trouble getting around to the water dish to drink. I will up her to twice daily soaks. Fingers crossed these meds will help. She has actually gained a couple of grams so at least no weight loss and she is eating.

Thank you to everyone! I would be an even bigger mess without your help.

@Lesa
Mine got allopurinal as well for gout, it helped with the blood results but it suppresed apetite, so he could not take it any more. Deposits were surgically removed. Rufin had inflamation under his head - one bump each side. Probably that is why the joint is swollen. Talk with your Vet because issue with Rufin was in his liver! So all the allopurinal in the world would not heal him, just get him in better shape. Rufin was all swollen, soaks that I made for him and allopurinal made it better. And the most important diffrence yours is little and is kept in perfect conditions... Rufin had 25 + years of wrong everything so take it as it is Rebel is just sick. Calcium to phosphorus ratio is one of the indicators how kidneys are working, its not a gout indicator but more how system is working parameter.

 

[Kasia]

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/gout.142392/page-2

 

[Kasia]

In the end this is what help him
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornithine
Rufin has been getting a content of one capsule daily for a month or so but after 2 weeks I noticed a difference. He is still with me so have hope!

 

[Lesa]

What makes you think that this is your fault? I mean, that is a young tort....likely what ever has shown itself is a result of factors prior to you.....Your set up sounds great....you are a hover craft over the tort and I doubt you are the cause.....also, gout will work itself out, what I mean is that it will go just as it will come from time to time....relax dear. You say you have other torts that are "fine"...so what makes you think you need to take on the responsibility of fault....just the way it goes sometimes....I mean, some folks get diseases and other don't....the tort already has its make up and that has nothing to do with you. Period.

Thank you. I’m just spinning. I used the mercury vapor bulbs not the long fluorescent bulb Markw84 recommended. But temps were good and I use a humidifer to help keep the humidity maintained. I also use the coconut coir instead of reptile bark. I tried the bark when she was tiny but she struggled walking on it and tipped over a few times so I switched. She was only 19 grams when I got her. I packed it down but to me I considered it “soft” as compared to other substrates. Moss in her hide but she prefers sleeping under plants.

Since all this strange walking she doesn’t seem to want the greens I mix for her as much. She gotten more hooked on the mazuri and maybe I’ve fed her too much of it. But it’s soaked in water so that should have added to her water intake. I tried a salad with greens, cactus and cucumber last night but she didn’t seem interested. She will always eat the maruzi and rep cal but can too much harm her or is it better to keep her eating? I saw some urates when she soaked last night but no poop. She likes sleeping under this wheat grass I buy or under a pathos plant I hung. Store bought and she munched on them now and again. Could there have been something wrong with them? I took them out just in case. Sometimes she would do this little wiggle after her soak and then poop. I called it her poopy dance. Maybe it was something wrong. I am just going over and over everything.

She has maintained her weight over winter but not a huge amount of growth. She is 85 grams at a year and a half. She started at 19. Slow and steady but she had a nice growth spurt last summer. It’s hard to judge compared to my leopards and sulcata.
I keep spread sheets and chart everything. Things I attributed to winter might have been the gout. I will try the new medication and keep a close eye on her appetite. The vet did not want to try surgery with her small size. I’ll post the labs as soon as I get a copy. I have a list of higher fiber foods. I will change to the flourescent bulb. I already bought some more reptile bark and will add an area in her enclosure. But I don’t want her to put too much stress on the leg right now. See if I can get the swelling down. Get her outside everyday in natural light. Longer twice daily soaks. Try to get some xanax for myself!

I feel responsible because I am responsible for her life. I have other pets. I used to do rescue work but after so many years it takes a toll. But when you adopt a pet, any pet, you are responsible for the them for their entire life. My horrible neighbors have put their declawed cat outside because he was peeing on their horrible little brats stuff. Well the kids are monsters and I don’t blame the cat. He hangs out in my big backyard and front porch. I leave food and water out for him just in case. It kills me but I cannot keep their cat. I can’t take that on. If something happens to me tomorrow I have made arrangements for my pets. If my torts outlive me and I hope they do I know my son will care for them. He is okay with that. Bottom line I want this little star to live a wonderful life even after I’m gone.

 

[Lesa]

In the end this is what help him
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornithine
Rufin has been getting a content of one capsule daily for a month or so but after 2 weeks I noticed a difference. He is still with me so have hope!

Thank you! I will check into it.

 

[Lesa]

See below lab report. I wish it had more information. It says female but of course I don’t know the sex at this age. I just say her because she/he is so beautiful.

 

[ascott]

Thank you! I will check into it.

I personally would discontinue the Mazuri, it is a processed commercial food, just like dog and cat food....period and expect your tort to go on strike when you remove this highly addictive item... Perhaps offer to the tortoise like once or twice a month, max. I would, for now, offer high water content greens (romaine, red and green leaf lettuce) to help get hydration inside as well as up the soaks to once or twice a day and make them a long warm soak...like 30 mins, perhaps set up under a warming lamp to maintain the warmth of the water...I would again hesitate to use that med, it is designed for humans and is being sampled with other animals...that is just one more thing that the kidneys will have to process...again, my opinion.

I personally would not change your substrate, I would just be certain it is solid packed and a little moist under the basking spot....

Oh and the reason I asked you why you felt the present condition of the tort was your doing is that before you acquired this tort ...it is likely that the beginnings of the damage has already began....I mean, there is a small window in time for the tortoise to move from perfect to dinged...hell, we all have that window in relation to species....so while the tort may have this issue, I again would avoid using meds....I would increase the water intake...I would increase soaks to longer warm soaks ..I would stop Mazuri....I would increase wet leafy greens in the diet to aid in hydration and the dark leafy greens give a good way to wean from the Mazuri addiction.

 

[Lesa]

I personally would discontinue the Mazuri, it is a processed commercial food, just like dog and cat food....period and expect your tort to go on strike when you remove this highly addictive item... Perhaps offer to the tortoise like once or twice a month, max. I would, for now, offer high water content greens (romaine, red and green leaf lettuce) to help get hydration inside as well as up the soaks to once or twice a day and make them a long warm soak...like 30 mins, perhaps set up under a warming lamp to maintain the warmth of the water...I would again hesitate to use that med, it is designed for humans and is being sampled with other animals...that is just one more thing that the kidneys will have to process...again, my opinion.

I personally would not change your substrate, I would just be certain it is solid packed and a little moist under the basking spot....

Oh and the reason I asked you why you felt the present condition of the tort was your doing is that before you acquired this tort ...it is likely that the beginnings of the damage has already began....I mean, there is a small window in time for the tortoise to move from perfect to dinged...hell, we all have that window in relation to species....so while the tort may have this issue, I again would avoid using meds....I would increase the water intake...I would increase soaks to longer warm soaks ..I would stop Mazuri....I would increase wet leafy greens in the diet to aid in hydration and the dark leafy greens give a good way to wean from the Mazuri addiction.

I am already doing the long warm soaks and will get her off the mazuri. It has been a recent addiction. She has been a good eater with mustard greens and radicchio as favorites. On the outside enclosure I just added more organic soil and packed it down nice. Making it a little easier for her to get around. It’s about a 4x6 smaller garden she can have all to herself. I have a much larger maybe 10x20 she shared last year.

As for the new meds, the vet had these specially formulated for her. Not off the shelf. This pharmacy makes the compounds in house. The .25ml includes the liquid it is mixed with so I do believe it is a tiny amount. I quizzed the pharmacist. What’s everyone’s thoughts on that? I need to get this swelling down. The vet said she has had good results with it but to call her on Monday. She had a dose yesterday and I could try it today and tomorrow? Soaks, wet leafy greens, no mazuri and meds until Monday and then reevaluate? No meds long term but enough to clear up the swelling? I am worried she is in pain and she did not eat any clover in the garden. That is very unusual.