Please ad anything you know about "coiled compact florescent bulbs".

[Maggie Cummings]

The link that Markw84 found is the same one that was all we seemed to have access to in 2007. And, it doesn't look any different. Ever been updated?

 

[Daveypryme]

I have used the coil bulb on my red eared slider since I got him 10 years ago as a hatchling. I didn't know the risks so I never thought to buy a different bulb. I have never had a problem with my turtle having any eye issues. The light has always been above is turtle dock about 12" high. He is almost 8 inches long,He looks great. I discovered the risks after I decided to buy a tortoise and joined this forum for help. I still use the bulb for my turtle but not for my tortoise I use the mvb for my tortoise. Mainly because of all the stories I have heard, and not wanting to risk it happening to my tortoise. Since my res has never had issues I haven't seen the reason to change bulbs.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I was trying to NOT get involved in this same discussion yet again, but it seems I need to...

Terry, I fondly remember our old conversations, but that ended promptly when you sided with a weirdo mad man that was attacking me. You may not take credit, and it may not be your invention, buy you ARE the one who told me about spraying the carapaces with water as a means of pyramiding prevention. It works, and I thank you to this day.

Maggie, everything you said was right on the money and I agree with all of it. I'm glad to have all that put in perspective. I'm not mad at all and have no reason to be.

Mark, those were some very good posts and there is some validity to what you said, but...

Pete, I usually agree with you on topics, but not here. I will explain...

To all now,
The problem with these bulbs is that not ALL of them cause this eye problem thing. Do any of you know how to tell which ones will cause the problem and which ones won't? Me neither. But there is no denying the FACT that they frequently DO cause an eye burning problem at lease some percentage of the time. I have seen this problem occur, and sometimes not occur, when these bulbs are used horizontally, vertically, close, far, in a white or aluminum reflector dome, in no dome, through a screen, with heat, without additional heat, etc... So have the reptile vets that I work with.

"Operator error" might account for SOME of the issues seen with these bulbs, but it does not account for all of the issues with these bulbs. One major obstacle is that the equipment and manpower to test these things is very expensive and no one with the finances to fund this research in a lab setting has any interest in discovering exactly what the damage causing mechanism is. It only matters to us individual hobbyists. And since I didn't win the 1.5 billion powerball the other day, we won't be finding out anytime soon. So where does that leave us? All sorts of plausible theories have been elaborated upon, but no studies to prove or disprove them.

Pete and Terry, now back to you two,
I'm thrilled that you two have been using these bulbs successfully without encountering these problems, but lets be realistic. Millions of those bulbs have been sold and not all of them cause this issue. What percentage of them do cause this issue? I don't know, but I'm glad to hear you've avoided the problem ones so far. Keep using them and eventually you'll get a bad one and come to the realization that I came to a long time ago that this issue is not just operator error, or due to a lack of instruction following.

While any bulb can be misused or malfunction, I do NOT see these problems with florescent tubes or MVBs. Now I'm sure Cameron the master Internet researcher can go find 15 links to MVB problems, but we do not see these problems here on TFO, I don't see them at any of the reptile compounds that I frequent, and the reptile vets I work with don't reprogram these problems to me.

One sentiment Mark touched on that I whole heatedly agree with is that EVERYONE using any sort of indoor UV producing bulb should have and frequently use a good UV index meter. This is ESPECIALLY true of people living in the frozen climates around the world that depend upon artificial UV for many months of every year. However, I'm not sure that these meters will detect whatever the problem is with these coil bulbs because they only measure the UV wavelength needed for D3 production, and not anything else, like UVC or bulb intensity for example.

Is this anecdotal? Yes. Yes it is. So is all of my evidence that simulating the monsoon season prevents pyramiding in many species of tortoise, but most people believe that because they see the evidence and results right in front of their face over and over again. Same story with these bulbs.

You are most welcome Tom! Thank you. You may recall during our conversations about my speaking with the sulcata legion Richard Fife.. when he first started his studies on pyramiding of redfoot tortoises. He learned that raising ambient humidity by spraying their carapaces was the solution!

I wondered why our discussions ended.. will you email me please and tell me who that weirdo mad man was? [ don't know how email works here ] - [email protected]

And YES most have no clue that sulcata spend MOST of their time OUT OF the blazing sun. And what do they do other than sleep there? - urinate and defecate - hmmmm would that be a source of ambient humidity???

Please realize everyone.. it IS vital that ALL basking tortoises have an area where they can be in the shade OUTSIDE of their 'humid' hide!!!

AND please realize that the only tortoises I keep now are redfoots. The two year-olds' spend little time under the light. The ambient temps/humidity are high so they are "in balance" there. The shade is on the other side of their "hide-hut".. where they stay often.

Even years back when I kept leopards.. hermanns and sulcatas I maintained a 'shade' area for them. The star tortoises were the most "heat-tolerant" of them all.

Bottom line - have used the tubes / loops and spirals over the years - give them options and chances are you won't have issues.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I have used the coil bulb on my red eared slider since I got him 10 years ago as a hatchling. I didn't know the risks so I never thought to buy a different bulb. I have never had a problem with my turtle having any eye issues. The light has always been above is turtle dock about 12" high. He is almost 8 inches long,He looks great. I discovered the risks after I decided to buy a tortoise and joined this forum for help. I still use the bulb for my turtle but not for my tortoise I use the mvb for my tortoise. Mainly because of all the stories I have heard, and not wanting to risk it happening to my tortoise. Since my res has never had issues I haven't seen the reason to change bulbs. View attachment 164224

Just to clarify..
You have been using the exact same coil bulb for 10 straight years?
Have you checked it with a meter to determine if it's still emitting UV rays?

**I've never used artificial UV so I have no experience to offer this thread.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Just to clarify..
You have been using the exact same coil bulb for 10 straight years?
Have you checked it with a meter to determine if it's still emitting UV rays?

**I've never used artificial UV so I have no experience to offer this thread.

I've been told that the UVB rays run out after about 6 months.....but that's MVB's

 

[Daveypryme]

Just to clarify..
You have been using the exact same coil bulb for 10 straight years?
Have you checked it with a meter to determine if it's still emitting UV rays?

**I've never used artificial UV so I have no experience to offer this thread.

No, sorry. I have used the same type of coil bulb for 10 years not the same one. I change mine every 6 months.

 

[sibi]

The main reasons I see are that MVBs run too hot for some applications, and they also cost more than some other options.

I understand the high cost factor, but if the MVB gets to hot in the enclosure, that's a quick fix. I simply raise the bulb higher until I reach the desired heat output. Look, I find that using the MVB for baby sullies can be so beneficial in so many ways provides that the owner has enough space so that the lamp can radiate enough heat /UV in that space. As with all products, I would not use anything that I haven't observed desired results. I am extremely vigilante in observing what my animals do, how they react to it, what their general skin condition looks like, you get the picture. Coil bulbs are forever out, and MVB work very well for my sullies.

 

[Markw84]

I understand the high cost factor, but if the MVB gets to hot in the enclosure, that's a quick fix. I simply raise the bulb higher until I reach the desired heat output. .

Sibi, I really like the MVB too, but in my enclosed, insulated chamber I use, the WHOLE enclosure gets way too hot with anything over a 75 watt bulb. With 100 watts, I can't get the coolest side DOWN to 90F. Even this time of year and the enclosure is in a 2nd garage devoted to our chelonians which today is 50F! Not in a 70F indoor room.

 

[sibi]

Sibi, I really like the MVB too, but in my enclosed, insulated chamber I use, the WHOLE enclosure gets way too hot with anything over a 75 watt bulb. With 100 watts, I can't get the coolest side DOWN to 90F. Even this time of year and the enclosure is in a 2nd garage devoted to our chelonians which today is 50F! Not in a 70F indoor room.

I understand perfectly; however, if possible I would've enlarged the chamber, poke holes in the ceiling or sides, put an exhaust fan of some kind, in order to make better use of the MVB. I know everyone does what they need to do to get the desired results. Your solution was to get a lower wattage bulb to fix the overheating problem. I get that, but know that under the right circumstances, this bulb is multifunctional and , I believe, safer than anything out there, with the exception of natural sunlight. That's all I'm advocating

You did what you needed to do, and that's fine. But, I wouldn't defend the use of coil bulbs so as to have newbies consider using coil bulbs. That would be wrong knowing the damage the bulbs have done to many tortoises, even if it didn't give you any trouble using it.

 

[Markw84]

Pete, I love conversing with you, so don't take this as an attack of any kind. Just discussing the matter in a civil tone here, and enjoying the discussion.

I think this is seen more with sulcatas simply because there are more sulcatas out there in the world than any other species. Another contributing factor is that since sulcatas are cheaper, the people who buy them, might be more inclined to buy cheaper lighting and UV options.

Also, I think you may be suffering from a logical fallacy that many people succumb to about sulcatas. Yes sulcatas come from a hot sunny place, but they spend 95-98% of their lives underground and out of the sun. It is very likely, given this fact that your RFs see more sun in the wild than a wild sulcata would, albeit dappled sun...

I'll thrown something in here... D3 is only created in the skin. Tortoises have much less skin area for UVB absorption than most any animal. The thickness and color of the skin also greatly affects UVB absorption. In the full shade in the tropics, there is still reflected UVB that would register about 1 on the solar index. That's enough for D3 production. Forest tortoises spend more time in the shade and under bushes and manufacture their D3 over that longer exposure. In a burrow, I think there would be very little, so the tortoise would be forced to take advantage of more intense, shorter basking at the burrow entrance and while feeding. That could mean they seek out more intense light. The fact that their skin is so thick in many parts that could be exposed, also would lead me to believe they would develop a propensity to brighter basking options than many others but for shorter times for safety and to maximize time in the environment of their burrow. I know my sulcatas always choose the brightest, warmest part of their enclosure to bask when thay have not been able to in a while, but in the summer, usually retreat to their 'burrow' house throughout the mid day. short, intense sunning may be a contributor as they try to seek out the most intense exposure to compensate for these factors????? Just a thought!

 

[Markw84]

I understand perfectly; however, if possible I would've enlarged the chamber, poke holes in the ceiling or sides, put an exhaust fan of some kind, in order to make better use of the MVB. I know everyone does what they need to do to get the desired results. Your solution was to get a lower wattage bulb to fix the overheating problem. I get that, but know that under the right circumstances, this bulb is multifunctional and , I believe, safer than anything out there, with the exception of natural sunlight. That's all I'm advocating

You did what you needed to do, and that's fine. But, I wouldn't defend the use of coil bulbs so as to have newbies consider using coil bulbs. That would be wrong knowing the damage the bulbs have done to many tortoises, even if it didn't give you any trouble using it.

I do not use a coil. I use a long tube.

 

[sibi]

I do not use a coil. I use a long tube.[/QUOTE

Oops, my bad.

 

[sibi]

I'll thrown something in here... D3 is only created in the skin. Tortoises have much less skin area for UVB absorption than most any animal. The thickness and color of the skin also greatly affects UVB absorption. In the full shade in the tropics, there is still reflected UVB that would register about 1 on the solar index. That's enough for D3 production. Forest tortoises spend more time in the shade and under bushes and manufacture their D3 over that longer exposure. In a burrow, I think there would be very little, so the tortoise would be forced to take advantage of more intense, shorter basking at the burrow entrance and while feeding. That could mean they seek out more intense light. The fact that their skin is so thick in many parts that could be exposed, also would lead me to believe they would develop a propensity to brighter basking options than many others but for shorter times for safety and to maximize time in the environment of their burrow. I know my sulcatas always choose the brightest, warmest part of their enclosure to bask when thay have not been able to in a while, but in the summer, usually retreat to their 'burrow' house throughout the mid day. short, intense sunning may be a contributor as they try to seek out the most intense exposure to compensate for these factors????? Just a thought!

That's much of the kind if behaviors my sullies have outside. I think you're spot on!

 

[Levi the Leopard]

No, sorry. I have used the same type of coil bulb for 10 years not the same one. I change mine every 6 months.

Ok thanks for clarifying..
Going through 20 bulbs is different than using just 1 for 10 years. So, if you suddenly notice an eye issue after a new bulb, you'd have the past experiences to compare it to.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I'll thrown something in here... D3 is only created in the skin. Tortoises have much less skin area for UVB absorption than most any animal. The thickness and color of the skin also greatly affects UVB absorption. In the full shade in the tropics, there is still reflected UVB that would register about 1 on the solar index. That's enough for D3 production. Forest tortoises spend more time in the shade and under bushes and manufacture their D3 over that longer exposure. In a burrow, I think there would be very little, so the tortoise would be forced to take advantage of more intense, shorter basking at the burrow entrance and while feeding. That could mean they seek out more intense light. The fact that their skin is so thick in many parts that could be exposed, also would lead me to believe they would develop a propensity to brighter basking options than many others but for shorter times for safety and to maximize time in the environment of their burrow. I know my sulcatas always choose the brightest, warmest part of their enclosure to bask when thay have not been able to in a while, but in the summer, usually retreat to their 'burrow' house throughout the mid day. short, intense sunning may be a contributor as they try to seek out the most intense exposure to compensate for these factors????? Just a thought!

Interesting..

 

[Tom]

I understand the high cost factor, but if the MVB gets to hot in the enclosure, that's a quick fix. I simply raise the bulb higher until I reach the desired heat output.

This does not work in a closed chamber. MVBs make so much heat that they over heat the whole thing. The bulb height and basking temp are not the issue.

MVBs are good for some applications, but they are not the best solution for others.

 

[Tom]

I understand perfectly; however, if possible I would've enlarged the chamber, poke holes in the ceiling or sides, put an exhaust fan of some kind, in order to make better use of the MVB.

All of these things defeat the purpose of a closed chamber, which in my experience is the best way to raise babies.

I do agree that coil bulbs are not the solution. I use long florescent tubes for indoor UV along with a lower wattage basking bulb for heat.

 

[sibi]

All of these things defeat the purpose of a closed chamber, which in my experience is the best way to raise babies.

I do agree that coil bulbs are not the solution. I use long florescent tubes for indoor UV along with a lower wattage basking bulb for heat.

Yeah, I see the problem with Mark"s chamber. If it doesn't work, that's all good and fine. Btw, have long florescent lighting ever given the babies eye trouble?

 

[Daveypryme]

Ok thanks for clarifying..
Going through 20 bulbs is different than using just 1 for 10 years. So, if you suddenly notice an eye issue after a new bulb, you'd have the past experiences to compare it to.

Yes. Without knowing about the potential dangers of these bulbs I would not think the coil light would be the source of the eye problem. But after reading everything I would change the coil light immediately if eye issues were to start.
I feel like maybe the issues happen with a faulty bulb or maybe some tortoises,lizards etc. Are more sensitive to the coil lights.

 

[Markw84]

Sibi: yes. That was a part of my original post on this and why I thought it more worthy of discussion. There were cases of eye problems with some long tubes though not at all as common but now there are even stronger high output long tubes plus metal halide. That's why I think it's good to keep this discussion going and exploring all possible contributions to the problem