Pine Bark sold as a good substrate?

KaapoTheHorsfieldii

New Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2020
Messages
20
Location (City and/or State)
Helsinki Finland
The pet store where I bought my Russian Tortoise said that pine bark is fine for russians.. little did I know they didn't know the truth. And now my 23 years old russian is having respiratory issues and we are going to the vet first thing in the morning though it's 1,5h drive but I need to know that if tortoise is healthy or not. I'm so mad at the pet store. ?
 

turtlesteve

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
711
Umm......I know not everyone agrees, but I use pine bark.

A good substrate should be (in my opinion):

- Appropriate size. I personally prefer to use pieces about the size of the tortoise's head, or slightly larger, but I worry a little less for larger tortoises. The particle size is important because it's cleaner AND because it prevents substrate from being eaten by accident. Fine or dusty substrates will stick to wet food and may get ingested.

- Not appetizing. Tan or brown materials are typically ignored, but white or colored things may be eaten. Sand has been associated with tortoises getting impacted (so I have heard multiple times over the years). Bark must taste horrible because if they bite it, it gets spit out immediately.

- Inert and not releasing strong fumes. For example, always avoid cedar.

- Doesn't decompose quickly / not supportive of mold growth (cypress mulch, fir bark, and pine bark do not usually mold even if they are wet)

So if the pine bark fits these requirements, I'd use it. Pine bark becomes a problem if it's very fresh (smells like an air freshener), the wrong particle size, etc. I think orchid bark (fir bark) is the popular recommendation because the needs of orchid growing seem to perfectly overlap these criteria. Also, it seems a lot of tortoise keepers are on the west coast and it must be widely available in bulk out there. Here in the southeast, fir trees are nonexistent and pine trees are everywhere. Orchid bark is just not practical for me, because it's not available in bulk at a reasonable price. However, I can get aged pine bark for $60 a truckload.
 

KaapoTheHorsfieldii

New Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2020
Messages
20
Location (City and/or State)
Helsinki Finland
Umm......I know not everyone agrees, but I use pine bark.

A good substrate should be (in my opinion):

- Appropriate size. I personally prefer to use pieces about the size of the tortoise's head, or slightly larger, but I worry a little less for larger tortoises. The particle size is important because it's cleaner AND because it prevents substrate from being eaten by accident. Fine or dusty substrates will stick to wet food and may get ingested.

- Not appetizing. Tan or brown materials are typically ignored, but white or colored things may be eaten. Sand has been associated with tortoises getting impacted (so I have heard multiple times over the years). Bark must taste horrible because if they bite it, it gets spit out immediately.

- Inert and not releasing strong fumes. For example, always avoid cedar.

- Doesn't decompose quickly / not supportive of mold growth (cypress mulch, fir bark, and pine bark do not usually mold even if they are wet)

So if the pine bark fits these requirements, I'd use it. Pine bark becomes a problem if it's very fresh (smells like an air freshener), the wrong particle size, etc. I think orchid bark (fir bark) is the popular recommendation because the needs of orchid growing seem to perfectly overlap these criteria. Also, it seems a lot of tortoise keepers are on the west coast and it must be widely available in bulk out there. Here in the southeast, fir trees are nonexistent and pine trees are everywhere. Orchid bark is just not practical for me, because it's not available in bulk at a reasonable price. However, I can get aged pine bark for $60 a truckload.

My tortoise now has respiratory issues from it and it did smell like an air freshener, but i removed it all now. My tortoise got a runny nose and bubbles and there is no other way that it would be other than the pine bark which is supposedly toxic.
 

Toddrickfl1

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 7, 2018
Messages
7,103
Location (City and/or State)
Ga
I don't think pine bark would cause a respiratory infection.
 

turtlesteve

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
711
Yeah, those symptoms do sound like a respiratory infection, but probably not related to the substrate. I would hazard a guess that the problem is either how the pet store was keeping the tortoise, or possibly the distributor before them (assuming it's wild caught as most are).
 

KaapoTheHorsfieldii

New Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2020
Messages
20
Location (City and/or State)
Helsinki Finland
I don't think pine bark would cause a respiratory infection.
But pine as it is is toxic to tortoises. I copied this from MoonValleyReptiles;

The scent of pine and cedar that we humans find pleasant are a result of volatile oils that can cause damage to skin and respiratory systems. These shavings give off aromatic hydrocarbons known as phenols as well as acids that cause harmful reactions.
 

jsheffield

Well-Known Member
Moderator
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2018
Messages
3,114
Location (City and/or State)
Westmoreland, NH
Orchid bark is made from Douglas fir, which is in the pine family... it's great for tortoises.

I think the warnings/concerns for tortoises are about using pine shavings and sawdust, which can contain aromatics that can be irritating... but the bark is widely used in orchid bark and mulch preparations that many people have been safely using for their tortoises for years.

I'm sorry to hear that your tortoise is having respiratory issues, but I don't think it's the pine bark; I think the concerns about it are overstated and passed along just like other tortoise-keeping dogma (like the talk about oil on their shells clogging up pores and stopping them from breathing through their shells, which you will see declared as fact on FB).

I use orchid bark and cypress mulch in my tortoise enclosures...never had a problem with respiratory issues.

JMHO, YMMV.

Jamie
 
Last edited:

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,265
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
The pet store where I bought my Russian Tortoise said that pine bark is fine for russians.. little did I know they didn't know the truth. And now my 23 years old russian is having respiratory issues and we are going to the vet first thing in the morning though it's 1,5h drive but I need to know that if tortoise is healthy or not. I'm so mad at the pet store. ?
How do you know the age of the tortoise? How long have you had it? Can we see a picture of the bark?
 

Markw84

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
5,041
Location (City and/or State)
Sacramento, CA (Central Valley)
Orchid bark is made from Douglas fir, which is in the pine family... it's great for tortoises.

Jamie

While pines and firs are in the same family, they are divided into separate subfamilies as they are so different from each other.

If you a familiar with working with wood, you will know there are big differences in the wood alone. Fir is a much more stable wood with tighter grain, while pine is much looser grain and can warp easily. Pine gives off lots of sap vs fir. The bark is totally different. Fir is a smooth, corky bark, while pine is a hard, plate like bark, etc, etc.

However, I do think most of the warning I know of about pine for tortoise use, is wood shavings, not the bark. Never used the bark, but would be concerned about the classic pine oil fumes released as pines have so much more of that sap throughout. But I will yeild to @turtlesteve 's knowledge and experience with pine bark since he has used it.
 

turtlesteve

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Sep 23, 2012
Messages
711
The pine bark I buy is aged. If I buy bags of it (as a soil amendment) the bag says this somewhere. If I buy it from the landscaping supply place, well, they get a bulk load every so often and it sits in a pile in their parking lot for months. Fresh bark is already less sappy than the wood, and the aged bark smells “earthy” with just a hint of pine smell - not like pine sol or sawdust.

I have never encountered or used fresh pine bark with a strong aroma so I do not know if it would be an irritant. I’d prefer not to find out. The main problem I have is that when buying bags, every now and then I will get some that is dusty and I will have to screen it before using it.
 

Ink

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
Messages
2,453
Location (City and/or State)
Virginia
May I ask where you purchased your tortoise from?
 

Ink

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
Messages
2,453
Location (City and/or State)
Virginia
I am sorry your tortoise is sick. Have you been soaking him in warm water?
 

Canadian Mojo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Messages
211
Location (City and/or State)
Ontario
While pines and firs are in the same family, they are divided into separate subfamilies as they are so different from each other.

If you a familiar with working with wood, you will know there are big differences in the wood alone. Fir is a much more stable wood with tighter grain, while pine is much looser grain and can warp easily. Pine gives off lots of sap vs fir. The bark is totally different. Fir is a smooth, corky bark, while pine is a hard, plate like bark, etc, etc.

However, I do think most of the warning I know of about pine for tortoise use, is wood shavings, not the bark. Never used the bark, but would be concerned about the classic pine oil fumes released as pines have so much more of that sap throughout. But I will yeild to @turtlesteve 's knowledge and experience with pine bark since he has used it.
I was just about to point this out.

"They're in the same family" is a dangerous trap to fall into. Nightshade, peppers, potatoes, and tomatoes are the same family (Solonaceae). Poison Ivy and Cashews are the same family (Anacardiaceae). Carrots, celery, dill, parsley, a bunch of other culinary herbs, and Poison Hemlock are the same family (Apiaceae).
 

Terrapin 3

New Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
23
Location (City and/or State)
Surprise
I'm not sure it was pine bark but my friends family bought some sort of substrate for their new baby Sulcata, and it got very sick.
 
Top