People in colder climates: How do you handle night temps during winter?

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yagyujubei

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Well, the fact of the matter is that what most young leopards do in the wild is die. And from a variety of reasons. Zoo animals live a longer life than their wild counterparts. Captivity doesn't necessarily mean that it is worse than the wild.
 

Tortus

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yagyujubei said:
Well, the fact of the matter is that what most young leopards do in the wild is die. And from a variety of reasons. Zoo animals live a longer life than their wild counterparts. Captivity doesn't necessarily mean that it is worse than the wild.

I've heard this about sea turtles as well. They have so many predators as hatchlings that only a very small percent actually survive to adulthood.

Which is perhaps why so little is known about leopard hatchlings in the wild. I imagine they're hiding somewhere most of the time so they don't get eaten.

Since leopards aren't diggers, it could be in the burrows of other animals or simply under some brush like mine does when it sleeps.
 

Tom

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Lower humidity levels result in pyramiding in my experience. Lower temps results in respiratory infections in my experience.

I don't find anything un-natural about keeping a sulcata with a background temp of 80, or higher, all the time. If you look at the temps over there every day and night and compare them to conditions when temps here are similar, 80 is the closest estimation I can get. My summer temps are very similar to the year round temps over there. Both the highs and the lows. My burrows hover around 80 all summer long with no added heat whatsoever. Day time highs get up to the 90s or 100s, and night time lows get into the 60s. So given what happens in the wild and what happens in my own burrows, I don't see how an ambient of 80 with daytime highs getting at or near 100 are unnatural at all. In this case, day time activity level temps would be 95-100. That's what my torts carapaces temp at for most of the day. So a drop to 80 IS a significant drop and given how they live in the wild, I think it IS the closest simulation of nature we can do in captivity. I don't get any of the accelerated growth that GB speaks of. I get normal smooth growth.

Granted all of this is specifically about sulcatas, but because of the mess that has been made of leopards, we will have a tough time trying to decide what is "natural" or normal for them in the wild. So again, in this situation, all we have is what we see and experience in captivity. What I see in captivity is that leopards thrive under this same 80 degrees all night with a high near 100 for the day. All leopards. Including my South Africans. NO other method has ever yielded me a smooth leopard. I would love to learn from others and share experiences about this, but in the end, all the advice and experience sharing for the past 20 years has failed me every time. In contrast, 80 degrees with 80% humidity has not failed me yet. And it hasn't failed anyone else whose been using it either. And I don't think 80% humidity is some magic number. I think 50% would probably work if the leopard had a real humid hide or two and chose to use them extensively, plus as GB noted, had the right substrate, enclosure and hydration routine. There is clearly more to this than just two "magic" numbers, but I don't find 80 to be at all unnatural or excessive, given what little we DO know about their existence in the wild.

I propose the same challenge that I have proposed many times in the past. This forum is full of pics of smooth leopards raised on the 80/80 routine, including my own. Let's see some pics and growth charts for leopards that have been raised with lower humidity levels and night temps in the 60s.
 

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I'm still a bit conflicted, but we have to take into account that 80 degrees isn't normal daytime temperature in the arid regions of Africa where leopards come from. Hell, I live in Maryland and it gets much hotter than that during summer days. We were over 100 during many days this year.

So would an 80 degree night temp not be enough of a drop? Let's see if we can come to a conclusion.
 

Neal

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Tom said:
Let's see some pics and growth charts for leopards that have been raised with lower humidity levels and night temps in the 60s.

I don't have any growth charts. But these tortoises have been raised in single digit humidity for the most part, but were only exposed to temperatures in the low 70's as a low.

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Tortus

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Those are beautiful, Neal.

So you're saying they were raised in less than 10% humidity? My house on average is 40% since I have marine aquariums that evaporate like mad. At least that's what the gauge reads in my uromastyx enclosure without any added moisture. I don't even put water in it...Uro gets all its moisture from food.
 

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For the most part, it was less than 10%. Whatever it was outside in Arizona and in my house during the winter. I've had them for about two years now and the first years monsoon was very week so they didn't see much moisture or humidity. This year though was pretty good, however, most of the growth in these pictures occurred before this years monsoon.
 

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Well they appear very smooth for leopards of that age compared to other pics I've seen. Near perfection. I saw some six month olds for sale from Vicki (tortoiseyard I believe) and they were definitely pyramided.

What are your opinions on humidity and temperature? I'm trying to gather all the info I can while mine is still young. This is the first and possibly the last leopard I will ever have (until the addiction kicks in anyway), and I'd like to get it right. As of now I'm getting so many conflicting opinions that I don't know exactly what to do.
 

Neal

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Tortus said:
Well they appear very smooth for leopards of that age compared to other pics I've seen. I saw some six month olds for sale from Vicki (tortoiseyard I believe) and they were definitely pyramided.

What are your opinions on humidity and temperature? I'm trying to gather all the info I can while mine is still young. This is the first and possibly the last leopard I will ever have (until the addiction kicks in anyway), and I'd like to get it right.

I've always thought and said that the key to preventing pyramiding was internal hydration. As in the tortoise drinking a lot and not allowing it to become dehydrated. The tortoises in the pictures I just posted and many others I have are evidence that supports why I think that. I really don't know the role of humidity. At this point, I consider it to be more of an insurance to prevent dehydration.

As mentioned earlier, the results are mixed, in that I still observe a small amount of pyramiding. So I've joined in again with the high humid way of doing things to see if I notice more consistency in my hatchlings shells.
 

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Ok, I get you. I was sort of thinking this also, like adding the bigger stalks from the greens and spring mix that will put more water into the tortoises gullet. They're full of H20 compared to the leaves alone. When you break the stalks in half your hand gets wet.

It seems to have a hard time biting through the stalks, but gets them down. If it puts more hydration into the animal that's good. And I do make sure the pieces are small enough that it doesn't choke. I wouldn't feed it something like a collard green stalk as big as its head.
 

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GeoTerraTestudo said:
And like I said, minimal pyramiding is found even in wild leopard tortoises.

This is true. There is a debate that the supposed wild leopards were once raised captive, then released and that's why pyramiding is seen in the wild. Of course there is no way to tell conclusively that a pyramided leopard walking around in the wild was once captive...so it's a difficult debate to have. I personally don't think it's probable that all of the pyramided tortoise observed were at one time captives, but it is possible I suppose.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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Neal said:
This is true. There is a debate that the supposed wild leopards were once raised captive, then released and that's why pyramiding is seen in the wild. Of course there is no way to tell conclusively that a pyramided leopard walking around in the wild was once captive...so it's a difficult debate to have. I personally don't think it's probable that all of the pyramided tortoise observed were at one time captives, but it is possible I suppose.

Redfoots (another savanna tortoise) also tend to pyramid in captivity, but I have seen slightly pyramided wild redfoots, too. So I think that to some extent a little bit of pyramiding (again, possibly due to some dryness) is normal for these savanna species.
 

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My opinion, based on very little tortoise experience I must add, is that pyramiding occurs based on a combination of genetics and optimal or suboptimal care. I relate this to the human body. A human can have an inherited compensatory for obesity or heart disease, but with optimal nutrition/exercise/sunshine this inherited trait can be reduced or eliminated. Without the "healthy" habits the inherited traits will most likely be magnified and cause disease/death. I think that not all tortoises have the"gene" for pyramiding but some do. My experience is only based on the three young leopards that I am raising now. They are clutchmates, and being raised with the exact same food, heat, light, outside time, in the same enclosures inside and outside. Yet, one of the three is developing just a little bit of bumpiness. In suboptimal care I think that the one with the bumpiness might be very pyramided. Anyway, this is what I think.

So, you ask "what is optimal care?" That is the point of this thread. There is not any clear definition yet, just speculation based on each person's experience..
 

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Tortus, are you clear on what you want to do? Here it is kinda spelled out. Tom has smooth healthy leopards. Neal's leopards, although beautiful and healthy, in his words, has a slight raising of the scutes and is going back to humidity to figure things out(sorry Neal if I got that wrong) A higher humidity of 80 with low temps, 65-70 will probably give you a sick tort. The high temps, 80 and the high humidity, 80 is easy to do and works. I know what I would do, oh ya, already do it, the 80 and 80. I have a smooth growing tort now, after a bad advice beginning and has never been sick. Toms way works, it's easy, it's spelled out, he has proof.
 

Neal

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wellington said:
Neal's leopards, although beautiful and healthy, in his words, has a slight raising of the scutes and is going back to humidity to figure things out(sorry Neal if I got that wrong)

Not entirely correct. MOST are completely smooth and are undoubtedly healthy, but few do have slight pyramiding and are still undoubtedly healthy. I have not kept a log so I don't have any statistics, but it's less than 20% of my hatchlings that I observe this in off the top of my head.

And it's not just "in my words"...but, I don't wish to derail anything here so I'll leave it at that.
 

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DesertGrandma said:
So, you ask "what is optimal care?" That is the point of this thread. There is not any clear definition yet, just speculation based on each person's experience..

This spells things out so clearly and eloquently. Very well worded joy. Thank you.:)

For my part, I am happy that we can have a discussion like this at all. In the past there was really one way to do it that most everyone agreed on, and it produced dismal results for almost everyone. I never saw any exceptions, if they exist.
 

Tortus

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wellington said:
Tortus, are you clear on what you want to do? Here it is kinda spelled out. Tom has smooth healthy leopards. Neal's leopards, although beautiful and healthy, in his words, has a slight raising of the scutes and is going back to humidity to figure things out(sorry Neal if I got that wrong) A higher humidity of 80 with low temps, 65-70 will probably give you a sick tort. The high temps, 80 and the high humidity, 80 is easy to do and works. I know what I would do, oh ya, already do it, the 80 and 80. I have a smooth growing tort now, after a bad advice beginning and has never been sick. Toms way works, it's easy, it's spelled out, he has proof.

I think for now I'll keep on doing what I'm doing. The day and night temps vary throughout the enclosure. The warmest spots at night have been 81 and the coldest at 75. I just hope I can maintain that when it gets more chilly in here. My humidity only goes up to 80% at night. I'd have to do a few modifications to keep it at 80 with the lights on. I'll make sure it stays internally hydrated as well.

Something I noticed this morning when I turned the lights on: One of its eyes was stuck shut or something. Or it had a film on it. It kept scratching at it in the soaking water and eventually it looked normal.

Is this common? It was sleeping on the end I keep more moist by the heat pad, but I forgot to take its temp. It ate everything and doesn't appear sick.
 

CourtneyAndCarl

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I have a testudo species so I don't have to keep it nearly as warm as you, but I have two heat mats on the sides of the terrarium that keep the ambient temperature reasonable and then at night I focus a very low heat red incandescent bulb on his sleeping spot. That keeps it probably at around 70-75 degrees on top of the substrate but he digs himself under so it's probably closer to 65 degrees where he is at
 
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