Pages of a thread GONE!

[Tim/Robin]

Tim, sorry this happened to you. I definitely would agree with you in a situation like this, and it would not be the first time things had wrongly been deleted. I just hope you don't allow this to persuade you to leave the forum. You (and Frodo) would be missed!

Thanks!!! Wrongly deleted indeed!!! I guess the mods have to keep busy doing something!!! I won't go on the account of the tortoises!! I KNOW I do what is best for them and have A LOT to contribute. Now they may ban me, but they won't chase me away!!! This is something I am VERY passionate about and in the case of this thread being deleted, along with others who participated have been wronged!!!

I can tell you this censorship has chased and will continue to chase many knowledgeable keepers away!!

 

[Jacqui]

Tim I won't do any dramatic actions or comments, but I have read and reread that thread several times and that is what comes to my attention in what was written. Sorry if I am wrong on that, but I honestly do not believe so. Now if you do feel that important things were written, that are not bashing a member or making fun of his usage of a language not his native one, please feel free to do another thread about this important information. I know several folks have already suggested that to you.

 

[Tim/Robin]

Tim I won't do any dramatic actions or comments, but I have read and reread that thread several times and that is what comes to my attention in what was written. Sorry if I am wrong on that, but I honestly do not believe so. Now if you do feel that important things were written, that are not bashing a member or making fun of his usage of a language not his native one, please feel free to do another thread about this important information. I know several folks have already suggested that to you.

It is unfortunate that your interpretation was such!! And that that interpretation got the entire thread deleted!! I never said a word about his husbandry. I don't give a damn how he keeps his tortoises. What I stated was, and I stand by this 100%, is that others should be aware of his recklessness with such delicate tortoises. I have proof he did in fact attempt to trade them. There are a select few who truly understand the gravity of his actions and where I am coming from. Your deleting the thread will keep many others from understanding this as well. He could cause the demise of many tortoises by such actions!!! Some will never get it!!

I will start another thread. You will see, it will NOT have the same impact.

No one has yet to explain why the thread was deleted!! At one point his cussing was edited as it violated the rules and the thread reappeared. IF I violated any rules, why wasn't the violation deleted and the thread returned? Instead the knee jerk reaction was to delete the entire thread.

 

[KenS]

This is a HUGE shame!! The POINT to the ENTIRE thread was that with the VERY few people working with a VERY rare and delicate species that (we are ALL trying to add animals to our collection) Tim and others were just trying to let everyone know how those animals were being kept and that they were in with W/C animals. This practice goes on ALL the time and so many animals die. These animals WILL be all gone one day from the Wild and if one of us buys and adds the animals in question to our groups it could be DEVASTATING!! So TRYING to warn the TORTOISE community I think was the 100% RIGHT thing to do!!! Maybe the powers here don't give a damn about these species!!!! I know I sure as HELL DO!!!!

 

[Tim/Robin]

This is a HUGE shame!! The POINT to the ENTIRE thread was that with the VERY few people working with a VERY rare and delicate species that (we are ALL trying to add animals to our collection) Tim and others were just trying to let everyone know how those animals were being kept and that they were in with W/C animals. This practice goes on ALL the time and so many animals die. These animals WILL be all gone one day from the Wild and if one of us buys and adds the animals in question to our groups it could be DEVASTATING!! So TRYING to warn the TORTOISE community I think was the 100% RIGHT thing to do!!! Maybe the powers here don't give a damn about these species!!!! I know I sure as HELL DO!!!!

EXACTLY!! I DO TOO!!!! It could cost the captive population dearly!!!

 

[Tim/Robin]

please feel free to do another thread about this important information. I know several folks have already suggested that to you.

I did as you requested, but some how it vanished as well. I can't win with you!!!! What DO I HAVE TO DO TO APPEASE JACQUI???

 

[mctlong]

The POINT to the ENTIRE thread was that with the VERY few people working with a VERY rare and delicate species that (we are ALL trying to add animals to our collection) Tim and others were just trying to let everyone know how those animals were being kept and that they were in with W/C animals. This practice goes on ALL the time and so many animals die. These animals WILL be all gone one day from the Wild and if one of us buys and adds the animals in question to our groups it could be DEVASTATING!! So TRYING to warn the TORTOISE community I think was the 100% RIGHT thing to do!!! Maybe the powers here don't give a damn about these species!!!! I know I sure as HELL DO!!!!

Thats the problem. The point of the thread was not for Tim to warn people about how those animals were being kept and that they were in with W/C animals. The point of the thread was for a relatively new member to share photos of his tortoises. The entire direction of the thread was changed and went off-topic from the original intention of the thread.

The message that Tim sent was not the problem. It was a good and noble messsage. The problem was the high-jacking of the thread and the steamrolling of the OP.

A new thread was started that allows for open discussion of the issues addressed by Tim. Its located here:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/post-628271.html#pid628271

please feel free to do another thread about this important information. I know several folks have already suggested that to you.

I did as you requested, but some how it vanished as well.

Its still up, unless you started more than one? Its located here:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/post-628271.html#pid628271

---

The way the OP was treated, I doubt he'll ever visit this site again. He clearly could have learned alot from being a member here and being surrounded by experts. His practices may have improved with the additonal education, benefiting the tortoises in his care. But instead, he was insulted and chased off. Who benefits from that?

There is a right way to constructively critique someone so everyone benefits and there is a wrong way. Highjacking a thread was the wrong way.

 

[Tim/Robin]

The POINT to the ENTIRE thread was that with the VERY few people working with a VERY rare and delicate species that (we are ALL trying to add animals to our collection) Tim and others were just trying to let everyone know how those animals were being kept and that they were in with W/C animals. This practice goes on ALL the time and so many animals die. These animals WILL be all gone one day from the Wild and if one of us buys and adds the animals in question to our groups it could be DEVASTATING!! So TRYING to warn the TORTOISE community I think was the 100% RIGHT thing to do!!! Maybe the powers here don't give a damn about these species!!!! I know I sure as HELL DO!!!!

Thats the problem. The point of the thread was not for Tim to warn people about how those animals were being kept and that they were in with W/C animals. The point of the thread was for a relatively new member to share photos of his tortoises. The entire direction of the thread was changed and went off-topic from the original intention of the thread.

The message that Tim sent was not the problem. It was a good and noble messsage. The problem was the high-jacking of the thread and the steamrolling of the OP.

A new thread was started that allows for open discussion of the issues addressed by Tim. Its located here:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/post-628271.html#pid628271

please feel free to do another thread about this important information. I know several folks have already suggested that to you.

I did as you requested, but some how it vanished as well.

Its still up, unless you started more than one? Its located here:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/post-628271.html#pid628271

---

The way the OP was treated, I doubt he'll ever visit this site again. He clearly could have learned alot from being a member here and being surrounded by experts. His practices may have improved with the additonal education, benefiting the tortoises in his care. But instead, he was insulted and chased off. Who benefits from that?

There is a right way to constructively critique someone so everyone benefits and there is a wrong way. Highjacking a thread was the wrong way.

---

No it is gone. The one you are talking about is NOT the thread I started as requested by the mods.

Don't you worry, kytuan has visited several times daily. He has not been "chased off".

 

[african cake queen]

Tim, sorry this happened to you. I definitely would agree with you in a situation like this, and it would not be the first time things had wrongly been deleted. I just hope you don't allow this to persuade you to leave the forum. You (and Frodo) would be missed!

dont leave, i need you. lindy

 

[Tim/Robin]

dont leave, i need you. lindy

Don't worry Lindy!! I am not going any where. I have way too much to offer that will benefit many tortoises present and future. I would however, LOVE to see some active testosterone in the moderation team!!! The girls club has gone too far!!

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm sure Mark appreciates your thought.

 

[mike taylor]

Is there a way of letting us know your going to edit or delete a thread instead of just removing it . I was in a thread that was edited and that was frustrating ! We almost resolved the problem .

 

[Yvonne G]

We usually don't remove it from existence, but rather we move the whole thing over to the Moderator section so we can all talk about it and decide what to do. In some cases, we may just remove the offending posts and/or words and put the thread back. We may put it back and close it. Or we may decide it has no redeeming qualities and send it to the "to be deleted" file.

 

[Jacqui]

Usually there is warning, such as a "freindly" Mod reminder to stay on topic or perhaps to debate the topic not each other personally. If something is way off, such a cussing or making fun of another's speech or saying somebody is an "idiot", is removed as soon as we see it. Normally then once a thread has been given the warning, if folks continuethe offending behavior or if another warning is not followed, even further deleting is done.

Some times we will pull the entire thread out of the public view in order for us Mods to talk about what needs to be done to the thread. Sometimes we pull it to give folks needed time to cool down. Some times we do it because it's "hot" and we don't want to leave it without a "babysitter". If we feel we can split the thread we do, but often too much is lost with the split to make sense.

In the end no matter what we do, we get yelled at for doing too much or not doing enough. It's always a lose lose situation for us and for the forum itself.

Does that help clear it up?

 

[mike taylor]

Ok. But a warning would be nice . Even little kids get a warning before the punishment.I under stand you removing some but all,that's a little much but I grasp the resins why some will have to be removed.The cussing is uncalled for and shouldn't be used at all!!!!!!!! There is no need in it!!!!!!! Especially when talking about endangered species. But good job on the site it has help me out with my tortoises .see ending with something good even if it started a little ruff .

 

[Tim/Robin]

dont leave, i need you. lindy

Don't worry Lindy!! I am not going any where.

I was wrong Lindy. It has gone too far.

 

[Madkins007]

I'm the one who moved it when it was reported as violating rules. I moved it so it could be looked at and dealt with. Sadly, I did not have the time at the moment to give it the consideration it takes in cases like this. If it had just been the language issue, that would have been easy, but it really felt like it was devolving to more than that. Even as early as post #4, one member made rather heavily worded comments about another member's actions, and by post #6, a member was using what really felt like racist phrasing in a way that felt like it was directed against another member.

Even now, looking at the thread, I am not sure I could cut and paste that together to avoid the problems that I personally saw in it. However, i could have been more clear to my fellow mods what I was thinking at the time. I apologize to them for that.




Now, a question for the mod-bashers... WHAT THE BLAZES ARE YOU COMPLAINING ABOUT? This is a site that is completely owned by a private individual out of the goodness of his heart. He is paying for all this, and doing tons of the work on his own. He invited a few very dedicated and committed people (and a couple of idiots like me) to help moderate this.

The moderators put in a lot more time doing this than you seem to realize, and agonize and second-guess themselves behind the scenes. They try hard to offer a site that is as open and free as it can be without devolving into the common problems you find on open forums- being ruled by a single mindset, bad language, etc.

Are the mods perfect? HECK NO! Does it make them love their jobs more to be treated like dirt the way some people do? HECK NO! Do they retaliate against that sort of thing? HECK NO! Although if *I* were in charge, there are a lot of people I would flush for the way they talk or behave. You should be thankful that wonderful people like Josh, Jacqui and Yvonne take most of the lead in stuff like this and as fair and tolerant as they are.

Most of us here enjoy the lively give and take the variety of members we have affords us, and we are usually genuinely sorry when people feel they have to leave, whether it is over issues like this or other things that have come up in the last several years. I hope no one leaves over this issue, and I apologize for my part in mishandling it.

HOWEVER- THE ONLY WAY WE CAN JUDGE YOUR TONE, attitude, or intentions is by what you write and how you write. People may not mean to come off as nasty or judgmental when they post. Posts in the thread in question may not have been intended as attacks, but they sure as heck come off that way. So... maybe, just maybe, it is your own fault? At least a little?

And maybe, just maybe, instead of yelling at the mods, YOU MIGHT TRY ASKING THEM NICELY FOR A CHANGE!

 

[RedfootsRule]

And maybe, just maybe, instead of yelling at the mods, YOU MIGHT TRY ASKING THEM NICELY FOR A CHANGE!

I'm sorry, I get what your saying Mark, but in the recent evolution thread....From the beginning of them being made, it violated the rules. I asked very nicely for the mods to delete it. I was ignored. It took FIVE PAGES for them to finally listen to me. Four of those pages were filled with insults toward "creationism" and religion...The moderators here chose to ignore it. Forgive me if I'm incorrect, but that sends a very clear message to me. The funny thing? The participating moderators completely agreed with the content; that is, they agreed with evolution. And you can't say it was missed. I personally messaged the moderators.
And then this second thread comes along, and to myself and about 5 others, it made it look VERY bad. Something along the lines of, the evolution thread was NOT deleted when the very subject violated the rules...Yet those moderators participating AGREED with the content? And so that thread stood. YET, the other thread made violated the rules, it was jumped on within an hour, and the moderators disagreed with the content? I bet you can guess what that looked like...Not good.
Delete this if you like, but I am just replying to what you wrote...This is what stood out about the situation to me. I asked for a change. It didn't happen. In fact, it was more then that. Apparently, I was just to "irritating" in informing the mods of a rule-breaking; so much that I was muted.

 

[sibi]

Kudos for you Mark. I'm glad someone said that. We are all lovers of our reptile friends, and yet, some would treat people as garbage. No matter how strongly you feel about a matter, it should never mean that we have the right to belittle the very ones who are providing this free service so that we and our reptile friends can benefit from it.

 

[Madkins007]

Peter, my post was not about the evolution thread but I understand your point. I actually agree with you about that thread, but not to the extent I spoke out (besides, I had fun making my own irritating post there!) The reason I did not speak out as a mod is that 'non-tortoise' debatable topics always get more lee-way. Gads, for as much grief as the moderators get on non-tortoise debatables, I am surprised they keep that area open.

I mean- they have been blasted for interfering, for not interfering, for editing, for not policing language, and everything else. It seems we/they cannot do right in that area in the long run no matter what we do. I can also tell you that the evolution thread prompted its own lively debates behind the scenes.

Yes, the mods do sometimes draw lines, sometimes rather arbitrarily, and even sometimes in the wrong place- but let's give the active mods credit for at least trying to manage this mess.