Outdoor Shed converted into a hide have some questions.

Nick C

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I wanted to introduce myself. Im Nick Campbell and i live in San Bernardino, Ca and just recently acquired a 7 year old 65lb Sulcata from a friend of a friend who had a pair and their little girl eventually turned out to be a very big boy who started to beat on and flip his little brother on his shell. So a few weeks ago a friend calls me and asks me if I would be interested in Billy the aggressive one. How could I say no. Sorry my phone just broke on me yesterday so I have no way of posting up pictures of him right now. I'll get some ASAP.

Well we have about 0.5acre with a pretty big back yard but we also have 2 dogs, so I created an 40'x20' enclosure in the corner of the yard with 5ft high cattle type fencing with welded wire so the dogs cant get in. We have a 10'x10' doll house/shed in the enclosure and Im looking for a way make it into his hide due to the ease of cleaning it can offer (Tall enough for me to walk in and wood floor.)

He already naturally made his hide right behind this shed under an old sink. Im thinking about cutting a hole into the shed where he currently hides and then he can crawl in the shed thru the back side and I can just keep the front door always shut until I need to go in for inspection/cleaning.

I already know the size and height (6ft) of the shed are going to be challenges to keep it warm/humid. So this weekend im going to line the entire inside with 1.5" rigid insulating foam and spray foam/sealant in all the corners/edges. I have a 27"x36" Kane matt (130W) on it way and have a 100W ceramic radiant heat bulb/lamp. The thermostat I have is the hydrofarm jumpstart (1000w). I concerned that I may need an oil radiant heater as well? I live in southern California so the temperatures don't down past 30s often maybe a couple times a year. Will a larger Kane mat and a ceramic radiant heat bulb work well enough? im also worried that if I get the oil heater it may over power my Thermostat with 930w when they are all in use. What are your thoughts?

Thinking about trying out this one.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Optimus-7...26997307652560422132&affillinktype=10&veh=aff
 

Nick C

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Found a picture in my email, this is his old hide at the previous owners house. His dimensions are 20(l)x15(w)x12(h) with some moderate Pyramiding. Any way to reverse it, at this stage?

thumbnail_IMG_5995[1].jpg
 

Rue

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You can't reverse it...but I'm wondering (haven't come across it before) what would happen with a shallow pool and/or sprinkle and/or hosings? If they get enough water in some form at this age, will that smooth out as they continue to grow?

Thinking out loud...

Good luck with the shed conversion! Could you lower the ceiling to help heat the space? Like a false ceiling panel?
 

Yvonne G

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Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

I manage to keep my tortoise sheds warm enough using pig blankets on the floor, and either 250 watt brooder bulb hanging from the ceiling or a 75 watt black light (I have four sheds and I use both).
 

fanofthedog

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Found a picture in my email, this is his old hide at the previous owners house. His dimensions are 20(l)x15(w)x12(h) with some moderate Pyramiding. Any way to reverse it, at this stage?

View attachment 173355
That pyramiding is really moderate in my opinion. Best you can do is be consistent- looks like he has access to graze all day so you likely don't need to supplement much. I buy timothy and orchard hay and occasionally mix it with some greens (to make it exciting for him) and sprinkle calcium powder once a week. My guy looks exactly like yours. Slight pyramiding from his first 5 years (he's 13 now) and I think it evened a little since Ive had him but hard to know!
My guy is in a dogloo. He has a pig blanket/heat mat for winter and there is a 50W black night bulb for warmth that hangs from the inside. I am building him a new enclosure because soon he won't fit in this house. I have learned that if Tyler feels like it - he can keep the mat inside his space or kick it out if he feels like it. I only leave it on a low temp (3 on the dial) Im not using it for heat as much as just warming the floor. The bulb on top keeps it between 78 and 82 in his house. If somehow it is freezing (I live in SFV) then I will put a blanket over the top of his house to to trap the warmth in. It takes some tinkering to get the temp you want so you'll want to buy a temperature laser gun (who wouldn't want one of those anyway!?) and experiement with the different options. Even though your shed is tall you could hang a bulb closer to the ground and the tort will still get the warmth. Maybe you can devise some sort of plank that traps the warmth. You sound like you have the right ideas and the skills to do all of it! Very excited for you and your tortoise!

Karen
Tyler's mom
 

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Tom

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Hello and welcome Nick. Glad you found us. You are making some common mistakes and hopefully we can help before it becomes a problem.

1. Nothing to do about the pyramiding now. It won't change much at this point.
2. 20x40 is a good size for a 8-12" sulcata, but its too small for a big one. They need room to roam, and you need room to grow enough food. Here is an example: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/enclosure-expansion.38788/
3. You are right to be concerned about the dogs. Keeping their areas separate is definitely the way to go.
4. You need a visual barrier along the bottom of the enclosure fencing. Plywood cut into 12" x 8' strips will work. Eventually he will hurt himself rubbing on it or trying to push through it. And they are surprisingly strong. Many will push through chain link like its not even there. I had some neighbors move in near me with an adult male sulcata and they put up the same sort of fencing that you did. Their enclosure was about an acre. I warmed them of this problem and they thought it would be fine because he won't currently rubbing and because the enclosure was so large. They came home to find their tortoise all bloody. He'd rubbed his nose and his front legs raw on the wire.
5. CHEs and overhead incandescent bulbs are no good for larger tortoises. They slow-burn the tops of their carapaces. Like this: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/open-topped-pyramided-scute.19691/
While burning the top, they are not able to keep the air temps or the tortoise warm enough.
The heat mat is good, but I would have gone with the 18x28. Using a large tall shed like that is difficult and very expensive to heat. All your heat rises, so you end up heating a 7 or 8 foot column of air just to get the temperature warm enough where you need on the ground. If the shed is not very well insulated and sealed, it won't work at all. Also, the mini oil heaters are not going to be able to heat that large of an area. I tried several versions of sheds over the years, and they just don't work for me. Here are examples of what does work:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/double-door-night-box.129054/

By the way, I'm East of you in the Santa Clarita Valley. We have similar climates. My Dad lives out your way.

Please feel free to question all of this. I'm happy to explain further.
 

Nick C

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Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
10
Location (City and/or State)
San Bernardino, Ca
You can't reverse it...but I'm wondering (haven't come across it before) what would happen with a shallow pool and/or sprinkle and/or hosings? If they get enough water in some form at this age, will that smooth out as they continue to grow?

Thinking out loud...

Good luck with the shed conversion! Could you lower the ceiling to help heat the space? Like a false ceiling panel?

You guys now have me thinking... maybe I can make a smaller hide within the shed.


Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

I manage to keep my tortoise sheds warm enough using pig blankets on the floor, and either 250 watt brooder bulb hanging from the ceiling or a 75 watt black light (I have four sheds and I use both).

Thanks! How tall are the inside of your sheds?


That pyramiding is really moderate in my opinion. Best you can do is be consistent- looks like he has access to graze all day so you likely don't need to supplement much. I buy timothy and orchard hay and occasionally mix it with some greens (to make it exciting for him) and sprinkle calcium powder once a week. My guy looks exactly like yours. Slight pyramiding from his first 5 years (he's 13 now) and I think it evened a little since Ive had him but hard to know!
My guy is in a dogloo. He has a pig blanket/heat mat for winter and there is a 50W black night bulb for warmth that hangs from the inside. I am building him a new enclosure because soon he won't fit in this house. I have learned that if Tyler feels like it - he can keep the mat inside his space or kick it out if he feels like it. I only leave it on a low temp (3 on the dial) Im not using it for heat as much as just warming the floor. The bulb on top keeps it between 78 and 82 in his house. If somehow it is freezing (I live in SFV) then I will put a blanket over the top of his house to to trap the warmth in. It takes some tinkering to get the temp you want so you'll want to buy a temperature laser gun (who wouldn't want one of those anyway!?) and experiement with the different options. Even though your shed is tall you could hang a bulb closer to the ground and the tort will still get the warmth. Maybe you can devise some sort of plank that traps the warmth. You sound like you have the right ideas and the skills to do all of it! Very excited for you and your tortoise!

Karen
Tyler's mom

Thank you Karen, so far he's mainly just been grazing and gets a few treats here and there. I really like your set up with a hide within a hide so he has more options of varying temp areas. I might try to make a version similar to that.


Hello and welcome Nick. Glad you found us. You are making some common mistakes and hopefully we can help before it becomes a problem.

1. Nothing to do about the pyramiding now. It won't change much at this point.
2. 20x40 is a good size for a 8-12" sulcata, but its too small for a big one. They need room to roam, and you need room to grow enough food. Here is an example: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/enclosure-expansion.38788/
3. You are right to be concerned about the dogs. Keeping their areas separate is definitely the way to go.
4. You need a visual barrier along the bottom of the enclosure fencing. Plywood cut into 12" x 8' strips will work. Eventually he will hurt himself rubbing on it or trying to push through it. And they are surprisingly strong. Many will push through chain link like its not even there. I had some neighbors move in near me with an adult male sulcata and they put up the same sort of fencing that you did. Their enclosure was about an acre. I warmed them of this problem and they thought it would be fine because he won't currently rubbing and because the enclosure was so large. They came home to find their tortoise all bloody. He'd rubbed his nose and his front legs raw on the wire.
5. CHEs and overhead incandescent bulbs are no good for larger tortoises. They slow-burn the tops of their carapaces. Like this: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/open-topped-pyramided-scute.19691/
While burning the top, they are not able to keep the air temps or the tortoise warm enough.
The heat mat is good, but I would have gone with the 18x28. Using a large tall shed like that is difficult and very expensive to heat. All your heat rises, so you end up heating a 7 or 8 foot column of air just to get the temperature warm enough where you need on the ground. If the shed is not very well insulated and sealed, it won't work at all. Also, the mini oil heaters are not going to be able to heat that large of an area. I tried several versions of sheds over the years, and they just don't work for me. Here are examples of what does work:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/double-door-night-box.129054/

By the way, I'm East of you in the Santa Clarita Valley. We have similar climates. My Dad lives out your way.

Please feel free to question all of this. I'm happy to explain further.

Yeah I didn't think there was anything that could be done with his current pyramiding. Regarding the size of his enclosure, I have been thinking about putting the dogs in the there and giving the rest of the yard to the tortoise but I don't quite know how that will work out. Haha But in all seriousness the dogs are pretty much indoor dogs after in get home from work at 3pm and Ive been letting him letting out to cruise the yard and graze for a few hours. The only problem is around 5:30-6:00pm he throws himself in any random corner and falls asleep and wants to stay there all night. Then I have to lug him all the way to back to his hide which is a pain. I see the type of wood boarder you have in your large enclosure. I will add that to ours for sure. Im going to send back the CHE/lamp and make a night box similar to what you have made but thinking a way to make it in the shed. I don't know why but I have a little thing for the shed idea.
Im adding a few pictures of his enclosure along with the rest of the back yard he gets when we have the dogs inside the house. I also would like to know if the one weed in the photo is poisonous/or something because he eats everything in the yard except for it. If you see any other issues from all the photos please let me know. He even has the dogs curious about what's so good about all this grass they start eating it every time he's munching in front of them.
DSCN1923.JPG DSCN1924.JPG DSCN1928.JPG DSCN1934.JPG DSCN1938.JPG DSCN1944.JPG DSCN1952.JPG DSCN1958.JPG DSCN1964.JPG DSCN1967.JPG
 

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Tom

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I like your idea of having a closable back door in the shed. You could make a heated night box within the shed, and that might work well. Once he gets used to his warm box, he will put himself away every night.

I don't know what that weed is, but the weed that he is eating in the one picture is mallow, and that is a great tortoise food.
 

Yvonne G

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My sister, Maggie, lives in Oregon and she had a 120lb male sulcata (recently died). Here's a link to her shed. As you'll see, she had a night box inside the shed that contained a pig blanket:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/bobs-shed.20710/

(Maggie learned the hard way about the light burning the tortoise's carapace. It was too low and burned Bob's back)
 

Rue

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Looks like a great yard for the tortoise. He's also very determined looking...in that Clint Eastwood (in a Western) way...
 

Nick C

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Here is a small update on the hide for Mr.Billy. I hope you guys like pictures, because there a bunch of them. Im not done yet, I need to put the thermostat and all the wires in a nice box, get a humidifier or a water tub to keep the humidity up, and maybe one of those radiant heat panels. I need to put the shed back together since I had to tear it apart to fit everything.

Here is the shed we started out with
DSCN1975.JPG
This is the inside after I pulled off all the siding. it had zero insulation.
DSCN1976.JPG
The floor was not in the best of shape so I decided to replace it unfortunately there was two layers nailed down to 2x4s and was a real pain to remove everything. DSCN1981.JPG DSCN1982.JPG I laid a sheet of 1.0" ridged foam insulation on the floor over the 2x4s with the foil side down hopefully it wont be a problem with it touching the dirt. I was going to put plastic but I thought it might trap water and create mold. DSCN1985.JPG I then laid a sheet of 0.5" OSB top of that, the OSB has a foil radiant heat barrier much like the insulation which may not keep much heat out but it does make that side less susceptible to water uptake if it gets wet. DSCN1987.JPGAll the sides were insultaed with 1.5" ridged insulation. Im going to fill the rest of the gaps with spray foam
DSCN1988.JPG His door opening is something like 23"x17" iiircDSCN1989.JPG DSCN1990.JPG DSCN1992.JPGNext I was on to the top and front. I wanted to make the hide very easy to sweep and clean so I made a flip up top that will fold up out of the way. the inside of the enclosure is 90"(L)x38"(D)x24"(T) I took the same 0.5' OSB and used some 1.0" wood trim. DSCN1995.JPG 1.0" Foam addedDSCN1996.JPG Buttoned everything back up with 0.25" plywood.
DSCN1997.JPG Made another one for the frontDSCN2000.JPG One of the hinges used to make the top foldableDSCN2001.JPG DSCN2002.JPG These Rubber seals were too fat and wouldn't allow the front to reach 90 degrees so I had to remove them. Need to find something skinnier. DSCN2003.JPG Installed in the shed in the standard down position. DSCN2005.JPG DSCN2006.JPG Up PositionDSCN2007.JPG All corners were sealed and then I laid down some self leveling water proofing cement. This product is highly polymer modified so it sticks to wood like no other and is actually really flexible. Im debating putting tile down or leaving it as is. I need do the same to the walls aswell DSCN2011.JPG DSCN2012.JPG Kane mate installed with no wires showing.DSCN2014.JPG DSCN2015.JPGThis is the door. Insulated as well. DSCN2025.JPG DSCN2026.JPG
 
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surfergirl

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my 100+ pound sully went through pig wire like that in no time. I will have to take a picture if I can of the perfect tort hole he put in it shaped just like him. :) the wood around it will keep him from pulling the squares apart like mine did. I have mine in chain link fence with wood at the base as well because mine just plows through or under chain link as well. he is much easier on the fence if he cannot see the weeds on the other side. :) Nice looking sully you have and giving him all that space will be great for him!

I built my sully a new shed and the first night he tried to sleep in the corner too, but we put him in the shed. from that day on he sees the shed as his burrow. I think yours will get used to using his shed too just takes some time for them to get in the routine I think.
 
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