Outdoor/indoor enclosures for DTs

[Cephalopodriia]

I have acquired 2 baby desert tortoises (it was an unwanted Christmas gift...but I couldn't turn them away) and am trying to care for them as best as I can so that I don't make the same mistakes I did with my first tortoise who now has a deformed shell (he is 15 now and doing really well). I believe these guys were born sometime in July/August/September so they may be 9-12months old. Their names are Jax and Otho (my oldest is named Ronnie and lives with my parents). We are in Southern AZ.
They were refusing to wake up when they were in their indoor habitat, I tried heating pad, lights, soaking, lots of yummy food but they refused to wake. Now one I am pretty sure has a resp infection (vet Thursday) and the other I am just assuming is sick too although no outward signs. They both will drink like fish but only one will really eat.
I used the care thread re: Russian torts and made a outdoor habitat (plastic tub pictured, a hardware cloth top to be come 8/2) and will use an indoor one (wooden box pictured). Is coco coir okay for DTs? I feel like it is damp and I am scared of what I have read as "shell rot" which kept me using a dryer mix of natural potting soil and playsand mixed with timothy hay (pictured in wooden box). Now I have the coco coir in the outdoor habitat mixed with maybe 4 cups of natural potting soil.
Does anyone have any ideas for the basking light for the wooden box? How close does it need to be? I have a paranoia they will get burned...? :|
I have actually been on this forum before re: my 15 year old tort but haven't been on in a while.
Thank you for input and guidance. I want to keep these babies but I am super stressed out about their care and not sure if I can handle it...

 

[Gillian M]

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They were refusing to wake up when they were in their indoor habitat, I tried heating pad, lights, soaking, lots of yummy food but they refused to wake. Now one I am pretty sure has a resp infection (vet Thursday) and the other I am just assuming is sick too although no outward signs. They both will drink like fish but only one will really eat.
I used the care thread re: Russian torts and made a outdoor habitat (plastic tub pictured, a hardware cloth top to be come 8/2) and will use an indoor one (wooden box pictured). Is coco coir okay for DTs? I feel like it is damp and I am scared of what I have read as "shell rot" which kept me using a dryer mix of natural potting soil and playsand mixed with timothy hay (pictured in wooden box). Now I have the coco coir in the outdoor habitat mixed with maybe 4 cups of natural potting soil.
Does anyone have any ideas for the basking light for the wooden box? How close does it need to be? I have a paranoia they will get burned...? :|
I have actually been on this forum before re: my 15 year old tort but haven't been on in a while.
Thank you for input and guidance. I want to keep these babies but I am super stressed out about their care and not sure if I can handle it...

A very warm welcome to the forum!

Please read the "Beginners Mistakes" Thread. There is a lot of info that could be of help there.

Where do you live and what is the whether like back there?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

He's in Southern Arizona. Yes, coir is fine for DT babies, Shoot for 80% humidity. With a temp around 85 90.I take my babies out and have built them a pen on the grass hoping they will learn to graze. So far so good. But only my DT eats the Rose of Sharon, the sulcata act like I'm trying to poison them.. Keep your babies damp, not wet, allow the top layer to dry.I'd go to the feed store and get a bag of terramycin, soak them in it daily. Soak them every morning. What are you trying to feed them?

 

[Cephalopodriia]

I try a mix of store bought dark leafy greens, collards, turnips, cilantro, alfalfa sprouts and I bought a seed mix specifically for tortoises bc I want them to graze (my oldest boy LOVES it)
They just don't seem to care about the grass. I also cut some pentunias that I've grown.

 

[ascott]

View attachment 182189 View attachment 182190 View attachment 182191 View attachment 182192 View attachment 182193 View attachment 182194 View attachment 182195 View attachment 182196 View attachment 182189 View attachment 182190 View attachment 182191 View attachment 182192 View attachment 182193 View attachment 182194 View attachment 182195 View attachment 182196 View attachment 182189 View attachment 182190 View attachment 182191 View attachment 182192 View attachment 182193 View attachment 182194 View attachment 182195 View attachment 182196 View attachment 182189 View attachment 182190 View attachment 182191 View attachment 182192 View attachment 182193 View attachment 182194 View attachment 182195 View attachment 182196 View attachment 182189 View attachment 182190 View attachment 182191 View attachment 182192 View attachment 182193 View attachment 182194 View attachment 182195 View attachment 182196 I have acquired 2 baby desert tortoises (it was an unwanted Christmas gift...but I couldn't turn them away) and am trying to care for them as best as I can so that I don't make the same mistakes I did with my first tortoise who now has a deformed shell (he is 15 now and doing really well). I believe these guys were born sometime in July/August/September so they may be 9-12months old. Their names are Jax and Otho (my oldest is named Ronnie and lives with my parents). We are in Southern AZ.
They were refusing to wake up when they were in their indoor habitat, I tried heating pad, lights, soaking, lots of yummy food but they refused to wake. Now one I am pretty sure has a resp infection (vet Thursday) and the other I am just assuming is sick too although no outward signs. They both will drink like fish but only one will really eat.
I used the care thread re: Russian torts and made a outdoor habitat (plastic tub pictured, a hardware cloth top to be come 8/2) and will use an indoor one (wooden box pictured). Is coco coir okay for DTs? I feel like it is damp and I am scared of what I have read as "shell rot" which kept me using a dryer mix of natural potting soil and playsand mixed with timothy hay (pictured in wooden box). Now I have the coco coir in the outdoor habitat mixed with maybe 4 cups of natural potting soil.
Does anyone have any ideas for the basking light for the wooden box? How close does it need to be? I have a paranoia they will get burned...? :|
I have actually been on this forum before re: my 15 year old tort but haven't been on in a while.
Thank you for input and guidance. I want to keep these babies but I am super stressed out about their care and not sure if I can handle it...

I would get rid of the timothy hay and all sand...I would go to the yard and get the natural Arizona earth...the sand settles in their gut after it sticks to food pieces and also tortoise eat the substrate and it can cause impaction...I would be sure to do long warm water soaks, like no less than half an hour and I would do this a couple times per day..

This species is an earth loving creature but it does not live in damp soil..any burrow or pallet is used to cool down and burrows allow the tortoise to regulate their body temps which helps in slowing dehydration...but living in a wet damp space is not natural for this species..others will not agree but I in turn don't agree with those that think they should be housed that way..if housed that way then the risk of illness jumps..

What type of light/heat are you using for most of the day for the tortoise? How were they housed/fed at prior home?

 

[Tom]

I have acquired 2 baby desert tortoises (it was an unwanted Christmas gift...but I couldn't turn them away) and am trying to care for them as best as I can so that I don't make the same mistakes I did with my first tortoise who now has a deformed shell (he is 15 now and doing really well). I believe these guys were born sometime in July/August/September so they may be 9-12months old. Their names are Jax and Otho (my oldest is named Ronnie and lives with my parents). We are in Southern AZ.
They were refusing to wake up when they were in their indoor habitat, I tried heating pad, lights, soaking, lots of yummy food but they refused to wake. Now one I am pretty sure has a resp infection (vet Thursday) and the other I am just assuming is sick too although no outward signs. They both will drink like fish but only one will really eat.
I used the care thread re: Russian torts and made a outdoor habitat (plastic tub pictured, a hardware cloth top to be come 8/2) and will use an indoor one (wooden box pictured). Is coco coir okay for DTs? I feel like it is damp and I am scared of what I have read as "shell rot" which kept me using a dryer mix of natural potting soil and playsand mixed with timothy hay (pictured in wooden box). Now I have the coco coir in the outdoor habitat mixed with maybe 4 cups of natural potting soil.
Does anyone have any ideas for the basking light for the wooden box? How close does it need to be? I have a paranoia they will get burned...? :|
I have actually been on this forum before re: my 15 year old tort but haven't been on in a while.
Thank you for input and guidance. I want to keep these babies but I am super stressed out about their care and not sure if I can handle it...

Hello and welcome. The russian care sheet is exactly how I house my DT babies too. There are lots of tips in there. This one might help too:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Answers to your questions and my observations:
1. Its normal for them to not want to wake up in winter with shorter days. If you don't want to hibernate them, it requires warmer temps and adjusting your lighting to simulate longer warmer days indoors. There are a few more tips, but we can discuss those in October if you are going to keep them up again.
2. I would not use sand for substrate. Not even in a mix. The number one killer of baby DTs is dehydration. Number two would probably be either pet dogs, or sand impaction. In my experience…
3. No hay either. They need damp substrate and hay will mold.
4. Coco coir is my preferred substrate for these babies.
5. I would not use soil either. You can't know what its made of. Could be something toxic like oleander or yard chemicals.
6. These babies need to be separated. When one is thriving and the other not in the same conditions, it is usually due to the long term chronic stress of being housed as a pair. This is very bad for them. Looks like you need 4 enclosures.
7. Above ground temperature extremes are another reason babies often fail. THe prevailing advice for this species is to set them up outside and leave them there. Its too hot during the day, and too cold at night for them, UNLESS they have properly built and designed underground shelters.
8. Are you soaking daily? You should be.
9. The height of your basking lamp in the indoor enclosure should be determined by your thermometer. You want it around 95-100 directly under the bulb. Raised or lower the fixture to get the temp right.

Please ask more questions and ask for clarification on any of these points.

 

[Yvonne G]

My first thought when I saw the babies was that they're being kept too dry. Be sure to soak them in warm water daily for at least 15 minutes. Make sure they have lots of shade to get out of the sun.

I chop up my babies' food into tiny pieces, and with the store bought greens, I use mulberry leaves, hollyhock leaves, grape leave and any other edible weed from the yard. The store bought greens usually entice them to eat, and when it's all chopped up real small, they can't pick and choose. If I have one that just plain won't eat, I grate up a carrot and a half a cucumber and mix that up with the greens and leaves. The smell of the cucumber usually makes them eat it all up.

 

[Valerie0426]

I was wondering if cucumbers were good for Russians. Saw a picture with a yellow pepper eaten by a Russian. Both are ok? Frequently or daily? Trying to broaden choices

 

[Yvonne G]

I was wondering if cucumbers were good for Russians. Saw a picture with a yellow pepper eaten by a Russian. Both are ok? Frequently or daily? Trying to broaden choices

Weeds and plants are always the best choice, but the occasional piece of vegetable won't hurt. Just remember that cucumber is fruit and Russian tortoises aren't supposed to have fruit.

 

[JoesMum]

I was wondering if cucumbers were good for Russians. Saw a picture with a yellow pepper eaten by a Russian. Both are ok? Frequently or daily? Trying to broaden choices

A Russian's diet is a variety of leafy greens

Cucumber is all water, no fibre and few nutrients and should only be fed occasionally.

Russians cannot digest sugars properly - they cause digestive and kidney problems - so sweet foods like fruit, peppers (red, yellow, orange, bell...), carrot and tomato should only be fed very sparingly and very occasionally.

 

[JoesMum]

Here's a list of suitable greens

Look them up on The Tortoise Table Plant Database if you're not sure what they look like.
http://thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plant_database_14.asp

Mulberry leaves
Grape vine leaves
Hibiscus leaves
African hibiscus leaves
Blue hibiscus leaves
Rose of Sharon leaves
Rose leaves
Geraniums
Gazanias
Lavatera
Pansies
Petunias
Hostas
Honeysuckle
Cape honeysuckle
Leaves and blooms from any squash plant, like pumpkin, cucumber, summer squash, etc...
Young spineless opuntia cactus pads

Weeds:
There are soooooooo many...
Dandelion
Mallow
Filaree
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Milk thistle
Goat head weed
Cats ear
Nettles
Trefoil
Wild onion
Wild mustard
Wild Garlic
Clovers
Broadleaf plantain
Narrow leaf plantain
Chick weed
Hawksbit
Hensbit
Hawksbeard

 

[Yvonne G]

I was wondering if cucumbers were good for Russians. Saw a picture with a yellow pepper eaten by a Russian. Both are ok? Frequently or daily? Trying to broaden choices

You'll notice I said, "If I have one that just won't eat..." then I add cucumber to the diet. Cucumber is a tool to get a tortoise to eat. If your tortoise is eating then you don't need to resort to that tool.

 

[Valerie0426]

I have looked at the list, I was just wondering. I did notice when won't eat. I have 1 that will & 1 that seems less enthusiastic. Fruits have seeds, vegetable don't, but that doesn't always work for sugar related.

 

[Cephalopodriia]

Hello and welcome. The russian care sheet is exactly how I house my DT babies too. There are lots of tips in there. This one might help too:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Answers to your questions and my observations:
1. Its normal for them to not want to wake up in winter with shorter days. If you don't want to hibernate them, it requires warmer temps and adjusting your lighting to simulate longer warmer days indoors. There are a few more tips, but we can discuss those in October if you are going to keep them up again.
2. I would not use sand for substrate. Not even in a mix. The number one killer of baby DTs is dehydration. Number two would probably be either pet dogs, or sand impaction. In my experience…
3. No hay either. They need damp substrate and hay will mold.
4. Coco coir is my preferred substrate for these babies.
5. I would not use soil either. You can't know what its made of. Could be something toxic like oleander or yard chemicals.
6. These babies need to be separated. When one is thriving and the other not in the same conditions, it is usually due to the long term chronic stress of being housed as a pair. This is very bad for them. Looks like you need 4 enclosures.
7. Above ground temperature extremes are another reason babies often fail. THe prevailing advice for this species is to set them up outside and leave them there. Its too hot during the day, and too cold at night for them, UNLESS they have properly built and designed underground shelters.
8. Are you soaking daily? You should be.
9. The height of your basking lamp in the indoor enclosure should be determined by your thermometer. You want it around 95-100 directly under the bulb. Raised or lower the fixture to get the temp right.

Please ask more questions and ask for clarification on any of these points.

"Above ground temperature extremes are another reason babies often fail. THe prevailing advice for this species is to set them up outside and leave them there. Its too hot during the day, and too cold at night for them, UNLESS they have properly built and designed underground shelters."
- are you saying they can be outside 24/7? I've made the indoor home bc it has been raining here every day for the last week. I cover the outside hut with a tarp and bring them in. I've added this basking light (the box it came in is in Japanese and I can't find it right now) but under the temp gauge it is at 100 degrees.
I will soak them everyday.

 

[Cephalopodriia]

My first thought when I saw the babies was that they're being kept too dry. Be sure to soak them in warm water daily for at least 15 minutes. Make sure they have lots of shade to get out of the sun.

I chop up my babies' food into tiny pieces, and with the store bought greens, I use mulberry leaves, hollyhock leaves, grape leave and any other edible weed from the yard. The store bought greens usually entice them to eat, and when it's all chopped up real small, they can't pick and choose. If I have one that just plain won't eat, I grate up a carrot and a half a cucumber and mix that up with the greens and leaves. The smell of the cucumber usually makes them eat it all up.

Thank you, Yvonne. I was waiting for your reply, you always have great info and provide guidance. I am going to try this cucumber/carrot plan before I separate them.
-Maria

 

[BrianWI]

Thank you, Yvonne. I was waiting for your reply, you always have great info and provide guidance. I am going to try this cucumber/carrot plan before I separate them.
-Maria

I say this to help you: at this point, separating them is likely the most important advice you got. Don't wait to try something else first. It can be critical.

 

[Cephalopodriia]

I say this to help you: at this point, separating them is likely the most important advice you got. Don't wait to try something else first. It can be critical.

Got it. Will Trump it and build a wall. Can't afford another habitat at the moment but will make priority when I can!

 

[BrianWI]

Y

Got it. Will Trump it and build a wall. Can't afford another habitat at the moment but will make priority when I can!

You could always Sanders it... make some rich guy pay for it.

 

[Cephalopodriia]

Y

You could always Sanders it... make some rich guy pay for it.

You think Kayne would leave the Kardashian and marry me? Then I could get a house with a yard!

 

[Tom]

"Above ground temperature extremes are another reason babies often fail. THe prevailing advice for this species is to set them up outside and leave them there. Its too hot during the day, and too cold at night for them, UNLESS they have properly built and designed underground shelters."
- are you saying they can be outside 24/7? I've made the indoor home bc it has been raining here every day for the last week. I cover the outside hut with a tarp and bring them in. I've added this basking light (the box it came in is in Japanese and I can't find it right now) but under the temp gauge it is at 100 degrees.
I will soak them everyday.

I prefer to have both indoor and outdoor facilities for babies, but yes with the proper facilities, in the right climate, with attention to the details, they can be outside full time. That is a lot of qualifiers. For the vast majority of people it will be easier, simpler, and better to bring them inside to a proper heated and lit enclosure during any unfavorable weather and at night.