Our New Golden Greek Baby

Status
Not open for further replies.

Olympia

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
29
Location (City and/or State)
Maryland
Hi There,
We just got a baby golden Greek 10-12 weeks old. We have her for 5 days now. When she arrived, she seemed ok and after 2 days she started to feel bad. She didn't eat and was hiding most of the time. I had to take her out and feed her. The day after I discovered that she had eye infection and took her directly to the vet. The vet injected her antibiotic, gave her some worm treatment and gave us eye drops to treat her every eve.

Olympia is now better, at list she is eating (not so much though), and pooping (a bit) and it seems that the eyes are better. She is still hiding a lot and doesn't want to wake up in the morning. I have to wake her up and take her to her food. Also, I dig her out to eat from some to time.

I am not sure if what I do is correct, may be I am too worried, or maybe she is to young to do all these things by herself already. If someone can help with experience and suggestions it will be fantastic.

Thanks a lot
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,390
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
Hi Olympia:

Welcome to the forum!!

I don't keep Greek tortoises, so I can't offer you any advice. But I think all baby tortoises are the same in that because they are prey items, they stay hidden all the time. I think that once your baby gets used to you as the food goddess, it will be a little more relaxed around you. I have to take my baby desert tortoise out of hiding every morning and place them in front of the food too. Don't forget to soak the baby 3 or 4 times a week. Because they are so small and we have them under lights and heat, they dry out very quickly.

I'd love to see pictures of your baby.
 

jensgotfaith

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2010
Messages
408
Location (City and/or State)
Rocklin, CA
Well- welcome to the forum. You are definitely in the right place for answers to your questions. It might help if you tell us a bit more about her. What type of enclosure is she in? What are the temps? What have you been feeding her? Pictures always help. You'll find lots of people here with great knowledge who are eager to help.
 

Olympia

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
29
Location (City and/or State)
Maryland
Hi,

Thanks a lot for your reply and support. You are right I should give more details about Olympia.

So most likely, Olympia is a she according to our vet. We bought her form a breeder in Florida and she was shipped to us by UPS. Previous to her arrival, we build a 38x22x11 inc wood box. As the breeder recommended to us, we are using cypress mulch and sphagnum moss. When she arrived we soaked her in water for about 10 min and placed her in her new habitat. Then we fed her with different kind of lettuce leaves. On top of the substrate we placed wet sphagnum moss (at the first 3 days) to kept the humidity in the box around 60-70%. Two days later we gave her some strawberry and corn, which is not recommended by our vet anymore.

After discovering that she had parasites, we replaced the entire mulch in the box (although we understood that she came with it) and we keep lower humidity, 30-50%, by not wetting the moss and soaking her for 5 min in water. We understood that high humidity can develop some fungi that can enter the respiratory system and harm her.

Today I noticed she still had some difficulties with opening her right eye, but the lid is not swollen. I keep washing her eyes with the drops.

I am attaching a picture from the first day she arrived. Please let me know if you need more info.

Thanks a lot!
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0655.JPG
    IMG_0655.JPG
    231.6 KB · Views: 274

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,390
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
Her eyes DO look slightly swollen, but that could just be from the trauma and stress of being shipped.

Good luck with her and I hope she gets well and starts eating like a little fool soon.
 

egyptiandan

New Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
5,788
Location (City and/or State)
USA
We need to know quite a bit more. :D We need to know the temperatures in her enclosure, under the hotspot, warm end, cool end and night time? We need to know what kind of lights you have and how long they are on?
Are you supplementing (vitamins, calcium)?

Danny
 

Olympia

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
29
Location (City and/or State)
Maryland
Hi Danny,

In her box, we have the day area and the night area. At night, we measured that the temp reach to 80-87 F. She likes to sleep on the edge of the pad (our box is from wood and we cut out a piece and placed a glass instead and attached the pad to it form the outside) where the pad ends but still on the glass. Sometime I just take her a bit in to the pad. Around the sleeping area the temp is~75-80 during the day.

On the day area, we have heating lamp that heat the center up to 100-105F. At the closer corner the temp is 80-84F and 80F at the far corner. She likes to be at the corners quite a lot. In addition, we have a UVB lamp (5.0). The day light is on for 12h 7:30AM-7:30-PM and one hour before its off the pad in on (6:30PM-6:30AM) so the place will be warm.

The box is covered with Cypress mulch and we spread on top some sphagnum moss and hay.

Let me know if you need more info.
Thanks a lot!



egyptiandan said:
We need to know quite a bit more. :D We need to know the temperatures in her enclosure, under the hotspot, warm end, cool end and night time? We need to know what kind of lights you have and how long they are on?
Are you supplementing (vitamins, calcium)?

Danny
 

Kristina

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
5,383
Location (City and/or State)
Cadillac, Michigan
The reason that she likes to be at the corners is that your temps are too high. High temps will cause excessive hiding as well.

Lower your hot spot to 85-90*F. Move the lamp out of the center and more towards one corner, creating a hotspot. The ambient temperatures should be around 80*.

At night, no supplemental heat is needed, provided that room temperatures do not drop lower than 70-72*F. If you do provide heat, keep it at or below 80*F and there needs to be a cool area (room temperature) in the enclosure so that the tortoise can regulate its own body temperature as needed.

Too warm is almost as bad as too cold. In the wild, when temps are high, tortoises will aestivate. It is also known as "summer sleep" and is similar to hibernation, but is brought on by high temperatures and dry conditions rather than cold weather. Because the enclosure is too warm, the baby is hiding to try to keep cool. I firmly believe that a reduction in temps will lead to a more active tort.
 

Olympia

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
29
Location (City and/or State)
Maryland
Thanks Kristina, i think you are right, I noticed that she is more active when I took her to the vet and the temp was around 80F. I changed the strength of the heating lamp. Thanks a lot!

I am learning a lot in the past 2 days thanks to all the advises.
Michal



kyryah said:
The reason that she likes to be at the corners is that your temps are too high. High temps will cause excessive hiding as well.

Lower your hot spot to 85-90*F. Move the lamp out of the center and more towards one corner, creating a hotspot. The ambient temperatures should be around 80*.

At night, no supplemental heat is needed, provided that room temperatures do not drop lower than 70-72*F. If you do provide heat, keep it at or below 80*F and there needs to be a cool area (room temperature) in the enclosure so that the tortoise can regulate its own body temperature as needed.

Too warm is almost as bad as too cold. In the wild, when temps are high, tortoises will aestivate. It is also known as "summer sleep" and is similar to hibernation, but is brought on by high temperatures and dry conditions rather than cold weather. Because the enclosure is too warm, the baby is hiding to try to keep cool. I firmly believe that a reduction in temps will lead to a more active tort.
 

greeks

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
44
Location (City and/or State)
New England
Hi!

I would also recommend losing the heating pad and lowering your temps overall (except in the basking spot). Tortoises heat up from the top down in the sun - in captivity the goal is to mimic that as closely as possible. I used a heating pad during my very first winter with my babies and it led to lots of issues with dehydration and listlessness - they basically just hid in their cool humid hides all the time. I switched to ceramic heat lamps when necessary. The issue is debatable but generally, it's okay to let your night time temps dip significantly lower than your daytime temps - I aim for 68-72. I keep my basking spot about 95 degrees but I use a bulb with a concentrated beam so it's easy for the torts to move out of it. I use a digital thermometer/hygrometer with a memory that will tell me the peak high and low which I find very helpful :)

For a baby tortoise too, I'd say your humidity is way too low. Their instinct is to hide and in the wild they bury themselves in the soil where the air is moist. I keep my greek babies closer to 65% humidity in the humid hide area. It will help the carapace grow smooth and even too and provided the diet is right, prevent pyramiding. You are right about wetness promoting bacteria/fungi growth so you don't necessarily want to keep the whole box that high. 2/3 dry aspen and 1/3 moist coir is what I use for the babies with several live plants and a humid hide box filled with some sphagnum moss that I mist every day. It gives them lots of options. Older tortoises are more often kept on actual soil mixtures and slightly lower humidity.

Can I ask if you purchased your tortoise from the turtle source? I know they ship torts UPS overnight from Florida...and based on how you're keeping your baby it sounds like you're following their recommendations. I've experienced a high incidence of hatchling failure with tortoises I've purchased from them, so keep your little one well hydrated and watch for softening shell, weight loss, color changes and skin/scale/scute abnormalities.

A couple cool tricks I've seen folks recommend on the forum for nursing a sick baby is to add a liquid vitamin to their soak (Fluker's makes one specifically for reptiles, I would use that one over a liquid supplement for birds). Some folks swear by soaking a sick tortoise in water with baby food stirred in. I'd use organic in that case, either squash or carrots.

These are my opinions. Hope it helps!
___________________________________

~Shauna

1.0.0 Ibera greek tortoise (Turkish variety)
0.3.0 Jordanian greek tortoises
 

Olympia

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
29
Location (City and/or State)
Maryland
Hi Shauna,

Thank you so much for the information. I took Olympia to the vet again, yesterday and she got another antibiotic shot (2out of 3). Today she looked much better. She ate more and walked more and didn't hide so much. So it is a great improvement to my opinion. We hold our fingers that she will be ok and grow healthy.

You are right we did get Olympia from The Turtle Source and she was shipped by UPS. In addition to the bad condition that she arrived to us, i am also upset about the way they don't care at all of the animal. I left them a detailed message of her conditions and didn't get any respond from them yet. Maybe it is better like this than getting bad advices.

I am working on reducing the heat on her night place and to keep it around 80s, if this won't work I will change the pad with ceramic bulb to heat form the top down, or if there are other suggestions I am open to learn.

I am still puzzled regarding the humidity. Our vet says that the habitat should be 30-50% and that we should soak her in water every day for 5 min and give her a lot of leafy greens that contain a lot of water. The instructions that came with her said to keep the humidity up to 70% and soak her 3-4 times/week. In the desert, the humidity is relatively low so it seems to me that low humidity should work for her, but I might be completely wrong on this because she lives in captivity and might be over-breed species. I welcome more discussion on this one.

Our day light is controlled by a dimer, so in the center we do have 95F and around it 80-82F, where she likes to hide or walk around. I think on this one we do better.

Until now I fed her with some kale, romaine lettuce and dandelion leaves. I have the impression that she mostly likes the romaine lettuce then the kale and not really keen on the dandelion. She did like strawberry, but I guess this one is only once a week because of the sugar. Any suggestions for more food variety for GG babies?

Thanks for the tricks, the idea of vitamin int he soaking water is really good, I will try that.

Many thanks,
Michal




greeks said:
Hi!

I would also recommend losing the heating pad and lowering your temps overall (except in the basking spot). Tortoises heat up from the top down in the sun - in captivity the goal is to mimic that as closely as possible. I used a heating pad during my very first winter with my babies and it led to lots of issues with dehydration and listlessness - they basically just hid in their cool humid hides all the time. I switched to ceramic heat lamps when necessary. The issue is debatable but generally, it's okay to let your night time temps dip significantly lower than your daytime temps - I aim for 68-72. I keep my basking spot about 95 degrees but I use a bulb with a concentrated beam so it's easy for the torts to move out of it. I use a digital thermometer/hygrometer with a memory that will tell me the peak high and low which I find very helpful :)

For a baby tortoise too, I'd say your humidity is way too low. Their instinct is to hide and in the wild they bury themselves in the soil where the air is moist. I keep my greek babies closer to 65% humidity in the humid hide area. It will help the carapace grow smooth and even too and provided the diet is right, prevent pyramiding. You are right about wetness promoting bacteria/fungi growth so you don't necessarily want to keep the whole box that high. 2/3 dry aspen and 1/3 moist coir is what I use for the babies with several live plants and a humid hide box filled with some sphagnum moss that I mist every day. It gives them lots of options. Older tortoises are more often kept on actual soil mixtures and slightly lower humidity.

Can I ask if you purchased your tortoise from the turtle source? I know they ship torts UPS overnight from Florida...and based on how you're keeping your baby it sounds like you're following their recommendations. I've experienced a high incidence of hatchling failure with tortoises I've purchased from them, so keep your little one well hydrated and watch for softening shell, weight loss, color changes and skin/scale/scute abnormalities.

A couple cool tricks I've seen folks recommend on the forum for nursing a sick baby is to add a liquid vitamin to their soak (Fluker's makes one specifically for reptiles, I would use that one over a liquid supplement for birds). Some folks swear by soaking a sick tortoise in water with baby food stirred in. I'd use organic in that case, either squash or carrots.

These are my opinions. Hope it helps!
___________________________________

~Shauna

1.0.0 Ibera greek tortoise (Turkish variety)
0.3.0 Jordanian greek tortoises
 

Kristina

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
5,383
Location (City and/or State)
Cadillac, Michigan
Greek tortoises come from the Mediterranean - while there are hot, dry, long summers there, it is a different climate than a true "desert."

Overall humidity of the enclosure for Greeks should be relatively low, which is why a lot of Greek keepers use aspen bedding for the larger portion of the enclosure. However, baby tortoises do not spend the majority of their time roaming around the surface, in hot, dry conditions. Young babies, especially under 2 years of age, spend the majority of their time hiding in burrows or buried at the base of plants, where the ambient humidity is higher.

For my baby Greek I have a sweater box set up, with half of the container having timothy hay as substrate, and the other half being coconut coir. The coir is sold in a brick under the names "Eco Earth" and "Bed A Beast," among others. You rehydrate it using hot water. For my little Greek I used my hand to wring the water out of the bedding, until it was damp but dry enough that I could not squeeze any more droplets out of it. (This process is pretty messy, lol.) There is a hide on the side of the container, and she buries herself in the hide, in the coir to sleep. The surface of the coir dries out fairly quickly, which helps prevent shell rot and respiratory infections, as does having the other half of the enclosure with a dry substrate.

I also mist the carapace of my baby directly at least once daily. I soak her also, but this is mainly to give her a chance to get a drink of water. The temperature of the water is warm to the touch but not hot, and I soak for 10-20 minutes. The water depth should be no higher than the bridge between the plastron and the carapace, so that the baby can hold its head above water with little to know effort. They drink by plunging their heads below the surface for several minutes at a time, if you look closely you sill see the throat move as they swallow.

Adding bird vitamins to the water allows the baby to ingest some of them as it is drinking. I also recommend adding broad leaf plantain to the diet, especially if you are already experiencing eye problems. Broad leaf plantain is a weed that is found all over the world and is very high in Vitamin A. Just make sure to collect from an area where there has been no pesticides or fertilizers used, and no dogs. Dogs can expel heartworm medication in their feces, and that can be fatal to your tortoises.

This is what it looks like -

broadleafplantain-300.jpg


Again, it is found all over the world and is a natural food item that tortoises do eat in the wild.

As I mentioned before, I would move your heat lamp to the edge of your enclosure. Because tortoises are cold blooded, they do not produce their own body heat, and use external sources (the sun, in the wild, heat lamps in captivity) to thermoregulate. If they are too cold - they move under the heat source. If they are too hot - they move away from it. Keeping the heat source in the middle of the enclosure does not allow for a proper temperature gradient, and would be like keeping you locked in an 85 degree room with no airflow.

I hope the little one starts feeling better!
 

Olympia

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
29
Location (City and/or State)
Maryland
Hi Kristina,

Thanks you so much for your useful advises. I am attaching some pictures of the habitat we build for Olympia, I would like to have your comments on it. In the center of the tow lamps it is 95F and in the corners of that area is 80F ( I measured it all day yesterday) and the humidity in the area is 40-45%. In the middle of the box, where we try to serve the food, it is 80 as well and around 50-55% humidity because I spray some water on the food . In the right corners, during the day it is 75-80 with 65-70% humidity because there is no heat there and at night there is a heating pad, but she doesn't like to sleep on it, she sleeps next to it and the thermometer next to her shows 80F. Most of the time she is in the 80F areas.

Her eye infection got better, I don't see any white discharges anymore, but Is till keep putting eye drops every morning until I will see the vet again. What concerns me most is that she doesn't eat. I am running after her with the food, she eats only form my had but not form my husband hand and if I don't feed her she hardly eats. Everyday, I serve her a piece of kale, romaine lettuce and dandelion. If she eats, she eat only the romaine lettuce. This is worrying me and I don't know if I am nagging her or I am doing good by forcing her to eat. On the top of her substrate we placed moist sphagnum muss and some hay, I thought she will eat that but she doesn't. Any suggestions regarding the food and how to deal with it? How bad it is if she doesn't eat and what can I do to improve it?

Thanks a lot,
Michal






kyryah said:
Greek tortoises come from the Mediterranean - while there are hot, dry, long summers there, it is a different climate than a true "desert."

Overall humidity of the enclosure for Greeks should be relatively low, which is why a lot of Greek keepers use aspen bedding for the larger portion of the enclosure. However, baby tortoises do not spend the majority of their time roaming around the surface, in hot, dry conditions. Young babies, especially under 2 years of age, spend the majority of their time hiding in burrows or buried at the base of plants, where the ambient humidity is higher.

For my baby Greek I have a sweater box set up, with half of the container having timothy hay as substrate, and the other half being coconut coir. The coir is sold in a brick under the names "Eco Earth" and "Bed A Beast," among others. You rehydrate it using hot water. For my little Greek I used my hand to wring the water out of the bedding, until it was damp but dry enough that I could not squeeze any more droplets out of it. (This process is pretty messy, lol.) There is a hide on the side of the container, and she buries herself in the hide, in the coir to sleep. The surface of the coir dries out fairly quickly, which helps prevent shell rot and respiratory infections, as does having the other half of the enclosure with a dry substrate.

I also mist the carapace of my baby directly at least once daily. I soak her also, but this is mainly to give her a chance to get a drink of water. The temperature of the water is warm to the touch but not hot, and I soak for 10-20 minutes. The water depth should be no higher than the bridge between the plastron and the carapace, so that the baby can hold its head above water with little to know effort. They drink by plunging their heads below the surface for several minutes at a time, if you look closely you sill see the throat move as they swallow.

Adding bird vitamins to the water allows the baby to ingest some of them as it is drinking. I also recommend adding broad leaf plantain to the diet, especially if you are already experiencing eye problems. Broad leaf plantain is a weed that is found all over the world and is very high in Vitamin A. Just make sure to collect from an area where there has been no pesticides or fertilizers used, and no dogs. Dogs can expel heartworm medication in their feces, and that can be fatal to your tortoises.

This is what it looks like -

broadleafplantain-300.jpg


Again, it is found all over the world and is a natural food item that tortoises do eat in the wild.

As I mentioned before, I would move your heat lamp to the edge of your enclosure. Because tortoises are cold blooded, they do not produce their own body heat, and use external sources (the sun, in the wild, heat lamps in captivity) to thermoregulate. If they are too cold - they move under the heat source. If they are too hot - they move away from it. Keeping the heat source in the middle of the enclosure does not allow for a proper temperature gradient, and would be like keeping you locked in an 85 degree room with no airflow.

I hope the little one starts feeling better!
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0685.JPG
    IMG_0685.JPG
    165.7 KB · Views: 120
  • IMG_0683.JPG
    IMG_0683.JPG
    152 KB · Views: 93
  • IMG_0682.JPG
    IMG_0682.JPG
    162.9 KB · Views: 83
  • IMG_0681.JPG
    IMG_0681.JPG
    134.7 KB · Views: 95
  • IMG_0684.JPG
    IMG_0684.JPG
    299.7 KB · Views: 85

greeks

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
44
Location (City and/or State)
New England
This comes from a tortoise guide on the web:

"The tortoise also needs a proper environment. Without this, even a perfect diet can result in MBD or pyramiding.

Some critical factors are UVB and moisture levels. However too much is just as harmful as too little. To strike a proper balance, gradients are needed. The tort needs a warm basking area with UVB, but it also requires a cooler section without UVB. This allows it to not only regulate its body temperature, but to also control its UVB exposure. The same is true for moisture. It needs a warm moist area as well as a cool dry spot."

For a baby a humid area that reaches 60-65% is great. Other areas should be drier. I keep my humid hide box near (but not under) the basking spot so that it is warm and humid. There is an additional humid area of coir with plants. The rest of my enclosure is aspen with temperature gradients that are cool and warm. My enclosure is a plastic sweater box (different sizes for different torts) so that it is waterproof and I will often mist the sides to add a kick to the moisture. Once you figure out how to get humidity to work in your house and your torts enclosure, it's pretty easy :)
 

Kristina

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
5,383
Location (City and/or State)
Cadillac, Michigan
Thank you for the pictures, it makes it a lot easier to understand how the enclosure is set up. I was under the impression that the heat lamps were hanging in the dead center of the enclosure, making the whole thing the same temp. What your pic shows looks fine.

First off, she needs a couple of hides. These can be as simple as a flower pot turned on its side and half buried in the substrate. Look for some Mosser Lee sphagnum moss. You can find it at Home Depot or Lowes. Wet it, wring it out so it is damp but not dripping, and stuff it loosely into the hides. Keep it damp with an occasional misting. There should be hides both in the warmer areas and in the cooler areas, so that she does not have to sacrifice security for thermoregulation.

If I were you, and she is being reluctant to eat, I would start doing baby food soaks. What you do is draw some water, warm to the touch but not hot, and add a jar of baby food butternut squash or carrots. Put the soaking container on a heating pad or under a heat lamp to keep the water warm longer, and soak the baby for about 20 minutes. Do this at least once daily. You can also add bird vitamins, the liquid kind that are made to be mixed with water, into the soak.

Babies not eating is not a good thing. They spiral downward very fast if they are not eating. I would continue to make sure she is getting something in her stomach each day, even if it feels like you are pestering her a bit.

With the dandelion, I have found if you tear the edge of the leaf a bit to release more of the smell, they go after it better. I would try to get her to eat some dandelion, plantain, or kale, and not so much romaine, if that means not offering it at all. But she does need to eat.

A baby that small will not eat hay. Does she have a water dish in the enclosure? Also I would put her food on a slate tile or something, to keep her from ingesting any of the substrate while eating.
 

Olympia

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
29
Location (City and/or State)
Maryland
Hi Kristina,

Thanks you so much for your support. Olympia is doing much better. She is now eating by herself most of the time and still like to eat from my had as well, and I am happy about it.

I still soak her every morning 5-10 min in warm water under the heating lamp with some birds vitamins, I think she likes it; it became our morning ritual. Then she eat a bit and hide her self under the grass. As you suggested, we bought a pot of grass that she can eat (although she doesn't eat form it yet), it is specially for pets, and we placed it not far from the heating lamp, but it is in the corner where she likes to hide and the temp there is 80-82F. It is under the UVB lamp, so she can hide form it as well (see attachments).

Most of her time she spend in the half part of her habitat, she doesn't go the the cooler part or the part that is less espoused to the light. This part, is where she sleeps at night on a heating pad, so may be it is less interesting for her, although it is a cool place during the day (76-80F).

At nights, when the lights are shutting down, she starts digging herself in the mulch, and I am usually taking her to the area of the heating pad because she doesn't know yet where it is. Any suggestions of how to teach her going there by herself? In the morning, I have to dig her out (should I do it or should I wait until she decide to come out by herself?) and now I am leaving her at the same place, just out form the mulch, and she learned to go to the food area, which is near the heating and the UVB lamp so she is progressing (she is so cute).

Every day, I give her some lettuce and kale and thin layer of carrot that she likes to bite. I will try again the dandelions as you suggested. I was surprised that she doesn't eat the grass (oat grass), maybe she is to little for it? Any particular reasons why not to give her so much romaine lettuce?

I think the humidity is more regulated now. During the day, at the heating area we have 60-65%, which drops down to 55-45% during the day because of the heat. In the cooled area the humidity stays the same also at night.
Before she wakes up in the morning, I soak the sphagnum moss in water and then place it all over. In the heating are it gets dry during the day and I do not wet it again. In the cooling area it stays moist and keep the humidity at 60-65% all day and night until the next day. If you have more suggestions on that or better techniques, I am open to learn.

The most important thing is that she is really doing better then the first days she arrived to us, so I am getting ore confident that she will stay with us and that we are not going to loss her!

Many many thanks!
Michal



kyryah said:
Thank you for the pictures, it makes it a lot easier to understand how the enclosure is set up. I was under the impression that the heat lamps were hanging in the dead center of the enclosure, making the whole thing the same temp. What your pic shows looks fine.

First off, she needs a couple of hides. These can be as simple as a flower pot turned on its side and half buried in the substrate. Look for some Mosser Lee sphagnum moss. You can find it at Home Depot or Lowes. Wet it, wring it out so it is damp but not dripping, and stuff it loosely into the hides. Keep it damp with an occasional misting. There should be hides both in the warmer areas and in the cooler areas, so that she does not have to sacrifice security for thermoregulation.

If I were you, and she is being reluctant to eat, I would start doing baby food soaks. What you do is draw some water, warm to the touch but not hot, and add a jar of baby food butternut squash or carrots. Put the soaking container on a heating pad or under a heat lamp to keep the water warm longer, and soak the baby for about 20 minutes. Do this at least once daily. You can also add bird vitamins, the liquid kind that are made to be mixed with water, into the soak.

Babies not eating is not a good thing. They spiral downward very fast if they are not eating. I would continue to make sure she is getting something in her stomach each day, even if it feels like you are pestering her a bit.

With the dandelion, I have found if you tear the edge of the leaf a bit to release more of the smell, they go after it better. I would try to get her to eat some dandelion, plantain, or kale, and not so much romaine, if that means not offering it at all. But she does need to eat.

A baby that small will not eat hay. Does she have a water dish in the enclosure? Also I would put her food on a slate tile or something, to keep her from ingesting any of the substrate while eating.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0688.JPG
    IMG_0688.JPG
    224.8 KB · Views: 75
  • IMG_0687.JPG
    IMG_0687.JPG
    164.7 KB · Views: 57
  • IMG_0686.JPG
    IMG_0686.JPG
    156.2 KB · Views: 66

Olympia

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
29
Location (City and/or State)
Maryland
Our baby golden Greek likes to eat only romaine lettuce and can fast all day if we give her dandelions or kale or any leaves that are not lettuce. We understand that this is not the best nutrition for her, does some one have any suggestions how to improve her menu? How to convince her to eat other things as well?
Michal
 

frogg3074

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
5
Location (City and/or State)
Southern New Jersey
Olympia said:
Hi Shauna,

Thank you so much for the information. I took Olympia to the vet again, yesterday and she got another antibiotic shot (2out of 3). Today she looked much better. She ate more and walked more and didn't hide so much. So it is a great improvement to my opinion. We hold our fingers that she will be ok and grow healthy.

You are right we did get Olympia from The Turtle Source and she was shipped by UPS. In addition to the bad condition that she arrived to us, i am also upset about the way they don't care at all of the animal. I left them a detailed message of her conditions and didn't get any respond from them yet. Maybe it is better like this than getting bad advices.

I am working on reducing the heat on her night place and to keep it around 80s, if this won't work I will change the pad with ceramic bulb to heat form the top down, or if there are other suggestions I am open to learn.

I am still puzzled regarding the humidity. Our vet says that the habitat should be 30-50% and that we should soak her in water every day for 5 min and give her a lot of leafy greens that contain a lot of water. The instructions that came with her said to keep the humidity up to 70% and soak her 3-4 times/week. In the desert, the humidity is relatively low so it seems to me that low humidity should work for her, but I might be completely wrong on this because she lives in captivity and might be over-breed species. I welcome more discussion on this one.

Our day light is controlled by a dimer, so in the center we do have 95F and around it 80-82F, where she likes to hide or walk around. I think on this one we do better.

Until now I fed her with some kale, romaine lettuce and dandelion leaves. I have the impression that she mostly likes the romaine lettuce then the kale and not really keen on the dandelion. She did like strawberry, but I guess this one is only once a week because of the sugar. Any suggestions for more food variety for GG babies?

Thanks for the tricks, the idea of vitamin int he soaking water is really good, I will try that.

Many thanks,
Michal




greeks said:
Hi!

I would also recommend losing the heating pad and lowering your temps overall (except in the basking spot). Tortoises heat up from the top down in the sun - in captivity the goal is to mimic that as closely as possible. I used a heating pad during my very first winter with my babies and it led to lots of issues with dehydration and listlessness - they basically just hid in their cool humid hides all the time. I switched to ceramic heat lamps when necessary. The issue is debatable but generally, it's okay to let your night time temps dip significantly lower than your daytime temps - I aim for 68-72. I keep my basking spot about 95 degrees but I use a bulb with a concentrated beam so it's easy for the torts to move out of it. I use a digital thermometer/hygrometer with a memory that will tell me the peak high and low which I find very helpful :)

For a baby tortoise too, I'd say your humidity is way too low. Their instinct is to hide and in the wild they bury themselves in the soil where the air is moist. I keep my greek babies closer to 65% humidity in the humid hide area. It will help the carapace grow smooth and even too and provided the diet is right, prevent pyramiding. You are right about wetness promoting bacteria/fungi growth so you don't necessarily want to keep the whole box that high. 2/3 dry aspen and 1/3 moist coir is what I use for the babies with several live plants and a humid hide box filled with some sphagnum moss that I mist every day. It gives them lots of options. Older tortoises are more often kept on actual soil mixtures and slightly lower humidity.

Can I ask if you purchased your tortoise from the turtle source? I know they ship torts UPS overnight from Florida...and based on how you're keeping your baby it sounds like you're following their recommendations. I've experienced a high incidence of hatchling failure with tortoises I've purchased from them, so keep your little one well hydrated and watch for softening shell, weight loss, color changes and skin/scale/scute abnormalities.

A couple cool tricks I've seen folks recommend on the forum for nursing a sick baby is to add a liquid vitamin to their soak (Fluker's makes one specifically for reptiles, I would use that one over a liquid supplement for birds). Some folks swear by soaking a sick tortoise in water with baby food stirred in. I'd use organic in that case, either squash or carrots.

These are my opinions. Hope it helps!
___________________________________

~Shauna

1.0.0 Ibera greek tortoise (Turkish variety)
0.3.0 Jordanian greek tortoises

Hi, I am new to this forum also and I recently got a baby Golden Greek from Turtle source. He has had "eye boogies" on his eye lately too. He eats zoo med grassland tortoise food and spring mix just fine. He does hide alot but if I take him out and let him crawl around out of the habitat, he is not shy at all. My only concern is his eye..especially after reading your post ...considering they both are probably from the same litter.

Ken
 

Olympia

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
29
Location (City and/or State)
Maryland
Hi Ken,

We got our Golden Greek on September 8th, and she was 10-12 weeks old at that time. If you got yours around the same time, most likely that they are form the same litter. I confronted the person form the Turtle source about the bad condition of the turtle when she arrived, and of course he tied to put the blame on us, which was impossible because we couldn't do anything wrong within 48 hours that will bring her to this conditions. Plus, we took her immediately to the vet, where she gave us eye drops that contain some antibiotic (Gentamicin Sulfate), which i gave here every day in the morning. It really helped her, it reduced the swollen eye lid and the infection in the eye. You should try doing that as well (it is not expensive)
Good luck,
Michal
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top