Ornate digging nests for 3 weeks

[lynnedit]

You may recall this Ornate female that I adopted from a local rescue organization a couple of months ago. She is in the waterland tub, and I have built up the soil with leaves and topsoil to 6 inchs or more in her favorite spot. It has had a black bulb, 60w trained on it for the entire time.

For the last 3 weeks she has been repeatedly digging nests, but no results. Initially she paced, soaked and didn't eat much.
For the past few days, she basks more, still soaks and her appetite has increased again for snails, grubs, a night crawler and blueberries, with a few assorted pieces of squash/carrot gratings thrown in.
And that was yesterday. :O

She doesn't seem ill; she is very strong. I just want to make sure she isn't uncomfortable. Perhaps this is a normal length of time. However, despite my efforts to build up the soil, she digs down deep enough to hit the bottom of the enclosure, so perhaps she just isn't happy with the location.

Should I (we) just hang in there? :?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTOVwZuYpGM&list=UUQU7h1BE5ELJhRS3M4nvfOw

 

[wellington]

How cute. Sorry I have no help for you. Just wanted to wish you both good luck and I hope it all goes well and she's just a picky one

 

[lynnedit]

Thanks, Barb. She is quite the character.

 

[diamondbp]

I would firm up the dirt. The loose substrate that you have can be as frustrating as dirt being to hard. Main reason being than they can't effectively FORM a nest cavity for the eggs. The pack the insides of the walls of the cavity and if the soil is too loose then it keeps falling back in.
Try mixing in some sand or dry soil to firm up the substrate.

Ornates are not my specialty but I suspect this might be what's wrong. Have she ever laid for you in the past?

---

Consider the dirt an ornate would be digging through in the wild. It would be much different than what she has available now.

 

[lynnedit]

Oh, good point,I will pack it down more. I have seen pictures of their nests in the wild and they do have a little bowl shapes, so that makes sense.


(she is new to me just in the past couple of months).

 

[Saleama]

As stated they will need a place that actually can be used, firm soil that will hold a good shape, and they will pace around for a very long time if they can not find one. Is there a way for you to get her to an outdoor habitat? Understand as well, that even though you do not have a male, turtles can hold onto sperm for several years and the absence of a male does not mean the eggs will not be fertile. You might become a grand mother in a few months if you are lucky! If she does lay, don't move them until you do all your research!

Try getting a deep area for her to dig and put a small plant there to firm up the soil around it. Ours will usually lay at the base of plants or clumps of grass. I'm not sure if that is normal mind you, it is just what I have seen with my own animals.

 

[lynnedit]

I would love to get her outside, but it just isn't quite the time here in the PNW. :/
She is in the Waterland land enclosure, so has a fair amount of room. It is planted naturally with logs, rocks, etc. (I did add more soil and pack it down to her favorite nesting area in there, but she hasn't been in her main enclosure overnight, see below).
Medium Land Enclosure
Dimensions - 70"L x 32"W x 14"H

Stephen, she was with males just before I adopted her. The box turtles are mixed together at the Rescue, so it may not have been another Ornate (not how I would do it, but at least they are cared for, and often come from bad circumstances).
When I adopted her, I was just concerned about creating a good enclosure for an Ornate, not about nesting! :O

Last night before you both had time to answer, I had set up a deeper Rubbermaid with a 60w black bulb and about 12 inches of dirt, a few leaves on top. While it may not be as compressed down as she would like, it is denser and she won't hit bottom (I hope!).
After it warmed up, I put her in it before bed and she burrowed down.
But when I looked this am, she was digging away in the shallow hole that i had created under the light. Just now I packed the soil down around her, and after a pause, she resumed digging.

So....I will leave her there today as long as she is digging. I only work this afternoon, so can monitor her this am.
Tonight I was thinking she should have access to water: should I just put a dish in with her, or soak her, or put her back in her regular enclosure overnight?

Thanks again for your excellent input.

 

[Saleama]

I would love to get her outside, but it just isn't quite the time here in the PNW. :/
She is in the Waterland land enclosure, so has a fair amount of room. It is planted naturally with logs, rocks, etc. (I did add more soil and pack it down to her favorite nesting area in there, but she hasn't been in her main enclosure overnight, see below).
Medium Land Enclosure
Dimensions - 70"L x 32"W x 14"H

Stephen, she was with males just before I adopted her. The box turtles are mixed together at the Rescue, so it may not have been another Ornate (not how I would do it, but at least they are cared for, and often come from bad circumstances).
When I adopted her, I was just concerned about creating a good enclosure for an Ornate, not about nesting! :O

Last night before you both had time to answer, I had set up a deeper Rubbermaid with a 60w black bulb and about 12 inches of dirt, a few leaves on top. While it may not be as compressed down as she would like, it is denser and she won't hit bottom (I hope!).
After it warmed up, I put her in it before bed and she burrowed down.
But when I looked this am, she was digging away in the shallow hole that i had created under the light. Just now I packed the soil down around her, and after a pause, she resumed digging.

So....I will leave her there today as long as she is digging. I only work this afternoon, so can monitor her this am.
Tonight I was thinking she should have access to water: should I just put a dish in with her, or soak her, or put her back in her regular enclosure overnight?

Thanks again for your excellent input.

She should have 24 hour access to water to drink and swim in. I use paint trays with pebbles in them or large terra cotter saucers (16"), whichever I have room for. Box turtles are often refered to as being semi-aquatic. In the wild I have found quite a few in shallow water or very near it.

 

[diamondbp]

As stated they will need a place that actually can be used, firm soil that will hold a good shape, and they will pace around for a very long time if they can not find one. Is there a way for you to get her to an outdoor habitat? Understand as well, that even though you do not have a male, turtles can hold onto sperm for several years and the absence of a male does not mean the eggs will not be fertile. You might become a grand mother in a few months if you are lucky! If she does lay, don't move them until you do all your research!

Try getting a deep area for her to dig and put a small plant there to firm up the soil around it. Ours will usually lay at the base of plants or clumps of grass. I'm not sure if that is normal mind you, it is just what I have seen with my own animals.

eggsackly! lol

 

[lynnedit]

Well, just after my last post, she stopped digging, actually the hole looked filled in and she was walking around over it. No eggs that I can detect.

So she is back in her regular enclosure, has had a dip and some raspberries.

Here is the little blighter basking, with her favorite nesting area behind her, newly built up and packed down. (she probably needs a beak trim, but between letting her get settled in, then the fake nesting process, it has been delayed, and doesn't seem to impede her).



Here is her water area and 'cuttlebone' beach.

 

[diamondbp]

Her beak doesn't look to bad. It's hard to tell exactly from the photo but it's within a healthy range from what I can tell. Let's hope her newly packed nesting area gets used! Do I get a free baby if all pans out well and you become a ornate box turtle mommy? lol jj

 

[lynnedit]

Isn't it bad luck to count our eggs before they are hatched?
(Good to know about the beak).

But yes!

 

[lynnedit]

Well, we have touch down.

She laid one egg (one, I think) yesterday in the temporary enclosure in deeper dirt. Fortunately I kept the 60w bulb on it. The am after I put her in there, she dug for awhile. When I came down about an hour later, the hole was filled in, and she was walking in circles over it, moving the leaves around. I looked for an egg, but couldn't find it, but a second search today (1 day later) was successful.
One interesting observation was that to dig the hole, she scraped her legs inward. To cover it and move the leaves around, she scraped her legs outward. She also walked in circles over the spot to disguise it.

So my friend has a functioning incubator. I might mark the egg and transfer it over to her house.
What do ya'll think?

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I just got caught up on this story. How neat Lynne!

Hey she laid, why not incubate? What a cool turn of events.

 

[lynnedit]

I am definitely keeping it warm, but have left it in the soil for now.
I don't have an incubator, but I know they can be home made.
I also thought about leaving the egg(s) there.

It is still in the separate Rubbermaid container with good rich topsoil (organic). Right now it is in a depression in the soil with sphagnum moss over the top (so I can check it occasionally), moistened daily.
Then a heat lamp with a digital thermometer/probe to keep temps about 80d.

That is how it is set up now. Does that sound OK long term?

 

[diamondbp]

I am definitely keeping it warm, but have left it in the soil for now.
I don't have an incubator, but I know they can be home made.
I also thought about leaving the egg(s) there.

It is still in the separate Rubbermaid container with good rich topsoil (organic). Right now it is in a depression in the soil with sphagnum moss over the top (so I can check it occasionally), moistened daily.
Then a heat lamp with a digital thermometer/probe to keep temps about 80d.

That is how it is set up now. Does that sound OK long term?

This is what I suspect happened. On occasion my females(after their first two clutches) will lay a (1-2) egg nest at the end of the laying season. I think your female may have been in a similar situation and she didn't pass that final egg and has been eager to since. Then you got her and she was making attempts but the conditions weren't correct. Finally when they were correct she passed that "relief" egg.

I would leave the egg in dirt if you keep it inside. As long as no ants can get to it it should be fine. DON'T MOISTEN THE DIRT AGAIN! Ornate eggs don't require high moisture content. Females will pee on the soil before digging and that will be all the moisture that the egg will need to properly develop. SO as long as your enclosure temps are in the 80s the egg will develop.

WIth all that being said, if you know your curiousty will get the best of you and you will want to candle the egg at any point during incubation then you might want to just dig it up now and place in a seperate container. A rubber shoebox will do just fine. Do a vermiculite/water mix (slightly damp to the touch) and place the egg 3/4 in the soil with the top portion still showing. This will allow you to remove it easily for candling purposes. Make sure the container temps stay between 80-90 roughly and the egg should develop normally.

Best of luck to you! TOUCH DOWN!

 

[lynnedit]

OK, no moistening. I think all of the sites I consulted were referring to Easterns, Three toes, etc., even water turtles.
Rich dirt seems best.
That makes a lot of sense about the 'relief' egg. I didn't dig around a whole lot when I found it (it is still partly submerged), but it appears there is only one.

Just to confirm; it sounds like temps for Ornates could be a bit warmer, up to 90f but no higher? I have seen other posts where they recommend 77-82, or 80-85, but this is for all NA box turtles, in general.
Also, if I remove it to the smaller container, do I drill holes on the bottom and around the inside edge, then replace the plastic cover?

Thanks!

 

[lynnedit]

Here is where the egg is now and temps are at 80f at egg level:

 

[lynnedit]

I've managed to get the temps a bit higher to 85f, but still left the egg in the soil.
The soil has been excavated down to the egg, of course, by me. However, the egg is still exactly as she left it position-wise, and I did replace some soil loosely on top of the egg.

We will see.

 

[diamondbp]

I would leave it where it is. I think you have a good chance of a natural incubation.