Not hibernating our hatchling Herman

[Lisanne Allen]

hello all! We are we parents of a hermann hatchling (not sure of his exact age) that we got in August. I am not comfortable hibernating him so I am curious what I should expect in terms of his behavior. As in, should he be less active, eat less? Or should I see no change at all? I just want to be prepared and not worry too much about his behaviors.

 

[wellington]

I have an adult Russian He too could hibernate, but I don't let him. I always notice a slow down on eating and roaming, it started about 2-3 weeks ago. Then he goes back to normal eating and almost normal roaming. Then he goes back into a slow down 2 more times thru winter. Keep temps and lighting correct, and keep feeding and warm soaks.

 

[Lisanne Allen]

Thank you! I have notice a slow down in eating and roaming but he becomes alert when we wake him. Sometimes he leaves 1 eye shut but he doesn’t have goocky eyes or anything and his poop is normal. I notice him in different areas of his enclosure so he is moving just not as normally active.

 

[Lisanne Allen]

I have an adult Russian He too could hibernate, but I don't let him. I always notice a slow down on eating and roaming, it started about 2-3 weeks ago. Then he goes back to normal eating and almost normal roaming. Then he goes back into a slow down 2 more times thru winter. Keep temps and lighting correct, and keep feeding and warm soaks.

Should I change what I am feeding during these slower times?

 

[wellington]

Same foods, can give a little less until it picks up again. Not every tort will go thru a slow down, but a lot do. Just have to wait and see if yours does. I usually can tell when my Russian leaves a lot of food on his plate. When that happens 2-3 days in a row then I know it's that time.

 

[JoesMum]

To keep your tort awake you must kid it that it's still summer.

It will detect the cooling weather and shorter days even when kept indoors.

Make sure the lighting is very bright and on for 14 hours - you made need an extra lamp just to make things brighter.

And make sure the temperatures are spot on too, especially at night.

 

[Lisanne Allen]

The morning 20minute soaks (as opposed to afternoon) have been waking him up and getting both eyes open. He really isn’t interested in eating, maybe a few bites a day. Now this evening I went in to look at him and he is totally in his shell. Won’t come out. His day time temp is 86’f he has plenty of hiding spots including a dark box that is 70’f. I have been checking on him every few hours and he is all over the cage so I know he has been active but for the last 2 hours or so he is fully tucked in. I’m totally freaking out thinking he is dead but my son thinks he is hibernating. I am praying by morning he has moved.

 

[Lisanne Allen]

To keep your tort awake you must kid it that it's still summer.

It will detect the cooling weather and shorter days even when kept indoors.

Make sure the lighting is very bright and on for 14 hours - you made need an extra lamp just to make things brighter.

And make sure the temperatures are spot on too, especially at night.

Should I bump up the wattage from 60 to 75? Or will that potentially make it to warm. Is adding a second light better in this situation?

 

[JoesMum]

I think we need photos of your enclosure and lighting.

A higher wattage basking bulb will make things hotter.

You didn’t say what the basking temperature was. It needs to be 95-100F.

The basking lamp must hang vertically and you control temperature under it by raising or lowering it.

Don’t trust clamp fittings; they give way and are a fire risk - it’s also very hard to get the correct temperature underneath a clamp as the bulb invariably points at an angle.

If you need to make it brighter in the enclosure without affecting temperatures then use a standard fluorescent tube.

 

[Lisanne Allen]

The red dish of flakes is brand new in an attempt to stir his appetite. Didn’t work

 

[JoesMum]

Lisanne what I see is a very dry enclosure. The substrate needs to be damp to raise humidity. All of it. Not just sprayed from a water bottle.

However, it is impossible to keep the ambient temperature correct for a baby in an open table like that. Babies need a closed chamber - a roof. Some people put a plastic plant propagator tent over the table.

You have a clamp lamp. Two problems with that:
1. It doesn’t point straight down vertically so you cannot get an accurate 95-100F directly underneath.
2. It’s on a clamp. These clamps are a fire risk. They fail and the lamps fall. Search TFO for news stories where this has happened.

Hanging the lamp from a reptile lamp stand rectifies both problems and makes it easier to adjust the temperature underneath by raising or lowering the lamp.

Your baby is too small to be hibernated and without proper temperature control will become very sick.

Please read the following and compare with your setup.

Beginner Mistakes
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Care of baby Testudo - written about Russians but applies to Hermann’s too.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...or-other-herbivorous-tortoise-species.107734/

I’m sorry this sounds so negative, but I do know you’re trying to do your best for your tort.

 

[Lisanne Allen]

I do spray it down multiple times a day but it is very hard to keep moist. I will definitely put a top over it! Anything to help. I will also hang the light. I am getting a good 98’f on the rock under the light but I would hate for the clamp to fall. Thanks for all your help. There is sooooo much information out there it’s hard to maneuver, I thought we had a well thought out healthy habitat, I feel horrible that I made this guy sick.

 

[JoesMum]

Don’t punish yourself. You are trying to fix things now and we will help.

I typed this up for someone else, but it will help you too.

To achieve the necessary humidity level you need damp, not wet, substrate and the correct temperatures in a closed chamber.

The choice of substrate is important. Coco coir and fine grade orchid bark both hold moisture well; they're cheaper from a garden centre or Amazon than from a pet shop. Just make sure there are no additives like fertilisers or white bits, like perlite, that will tempt your tort to eat the substrate. Some brands of tortoise substrate add calcium bits which is appalling... eating substrate is not to be encouraged!

To make the substrate damp, take all the decor out and tip water in from a jug then mix it thoroughly with your hands. Repeat until all the substrate is damp, but not wet.

You can spray with water from a plant spray bottle to slow down the drying out, but it will be necessary to repeat tipping water in every few weeks as the substrate dries.

 

[Lisanne Allen]

So still no movement since lastnight. Even when I pick him up. Sadly I really think he has passed, but I will keep up the efforts in hope for the best

 

[JoesMum]

So still no movement since lastnight. Even when I pick him up. Sadly I really think he has passed, but I will keep up the efforts in hope for the best

I truly hope not. Big electric hug from me.

 

[Bee62]

Are there news ? Is the baby alive ?

 

[Lisanne Allen]

Are there news ? Is the baby alive ?

Sadly he is gone
We are totally heart broken! My son is a sobbin mess, he keeps saying I failed him. Makes it even harder. We are going to try again since we really did love the little guy! Do you guys mind giving advice on changes I should make before we start our next adventure? I just can’t bear the thought of loosing another

 

[leigti]

I’m sorry your little guy didn’t make it. Do you plan on getting a hatchling again? Maybe one a little older would be better, it looks like your little guy was very very young. For the first six months I kept my hatchling in a 40 gallon breeder aquarium. And I kept the top pretty much covered. This helps keep the heat and humidity in. I used coconut coir. I soaked him daily for the first four months or so then every other day, now twice a week. He is one year old now.
Also, where did you get your baby tortoise? The breeder may have started him out dry also. If so you may want to consider getting your tortoise from another source. I know there is a lot of conflicting information out there but stay on this site, check out the species specific sections, and he will get all the information you need.

 

[Bee62]

I’m sorry your little guy didn’t make it. Do you plan on getting a hatchling again? Maybe one a little older would be better, it looks like your little guy was very very young. For the first six months I kept my hatchling in a 40 gallon breeder aquarium. And I kept the top pretty much covered. This helps keep the heat and humidity in. I used coconut coir. I soaked him daily for the first four months or so then every other day, now twice a week. He is one year old now.
Also, where did you get your baby tortoise? The breeder may have started him out dry also. If so you may want to consider getting your tortoise from another source. I know there is a lot of conflicting information out there but stay on this site, check out the species specific sections, and he will get all the information you need.

I totally agree with @leigti
Only a closed chamber is suitable for young tortoises. Humidity and warmth are the most important things to raise a young tort healthy.
Search for a breeder that starts his babies in a humid closed chamber.
And yes, stay on the forum and read all you can get about tortoises and how to keep them healthy.

I am sorry too that you little baby passed away and I wish you much luck for the next one. When you`ll follow the advices here the next baby should thrive and grow well.
These are my little Hermann tortoises. Not hibernating and growing very well.

 

[Lisanne Allen]

I’m sorry your little guy didn’t make it. Do you plan on getting a hatchling again? Maybe one a little older would be better, it looks like your little guy was very very young. For the first six months I kept my hatchling in a 40 gallon breeder aquarium. And I kept the top pretty much covered. This helps keep the heat and humidity in. I used coconut coir. I soaked him daily for the first four months or so then every other day, now twice a week. He is one year old now.
Also, where did you get your baby tortoise? The breeder may have started him out dry also. If so you may want to consider getting your tortoise from another source. I know there is a lot of conflicting information out there but stay on this site, check out the species specific sections, and he will get all the information you need.

I got him from the Midwest reptile show. He must be a ‘dry’ breeder since his exact instructions were to soak him every few days for 15minutes or so. He didn’t even tell me how old the little guys was. We went to the show in may decided on a pet, went home and researched then went back in August to bring the little guy home. We had no idea how little he was until I joined the forum. He also instructed us to only give him Romain, dandelion greens, and red leaf lettuce for the next few months since they are the easiest to digest, when I mention calcium and mazuri (I had already purchased) he said NO WAY, not for at least 6months. He only lived 2 . I am having a really hard time finding older torts of the breed. They seem to all be hatchlings, or prepay and wait until they are old enough to find homes. The next show is November 5th and I planned to go back and go to him first and tell him his poor baby didn’t make it but purchase from another source, there were multiple there, my son just liked the tort he picked the best!
A couple questions, was the substrate coconut coir and only coconut coir? We used topsoil and Pete moss. Could I just cover the tortoise table we built (photo attached)? I sprayed down his entire enclosure 3 or 4 times a day to make sure it stayed moist and the sweet little thing would drink from a medicine dropper, so I would give him a drink multiple times a day in addition to the soak. What did you feed so young? At first he was a piggie! It wasn’t until about 3 weeks ago he stopped eating and it took a ton of effort to get him to take a bite. My temps match the care sheet instructions and his light is on from 7:30am to about 8-8:30 pm.
I would like to note the cuttle bone and food pellets were only in the photo because this was taken after he got ill and I was trying anything to make him eat. That’s also why there are dry dandelion green. Normally he ate them all and I would replenish a couple times a day for him.