NOT ALL CHERRYS ARE DWARFS ~

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N2TORTS

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Here is a " fine " example to the " myth" that Cherryhead redfoots are a " dwarf " species. This is " Oscar " next to a 4"RF and a 6"Cherry.....He is one " Monster Cherry" very heavy and " well built" ...and for color ..well just look:D.... ..and is by far the largest in my herd. Although the 2nd male is not far behind ...
size.jpg

JD~:)
 

terryo

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OK...now you're just trying to scare me. This better not happen to Pio or he'll be standing on the corner with a sign....."will do odd jobs for food".
 

N2TORTS

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terryo said:
OK...now you're just trying to scare me. This better not happen to Pio or he'll be standing on the corner with a sign....."will do odd jobs for food".

LOL ... "T" ..
not a bad idea! :D

JD~:)
 

Bryan

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What's the length and weight of him?
 

Stephanie Logan

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"Oscar"?! How about "Kronk" or "Bruiser"?

And for heaven's sake, keep those miniatures out of his path or you'll be scraping them off the bottom of Oscar's feet...
 

Candy

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Dale's got a chance after all. Now that I see yours I'm hoping that Dale gets to that size then I wouldn't have to protect him so much from the dogs and the juvenile hawks that we've seemed to have adopted over here in Alhambra. :( That is one big guy that you have there and very nice looking. The other ones don't seem afraid at all of him. I'm still waiting for you to post inches and weight though. :)
 

Madkins007

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As far as I can tell from bits and pieces of stories from experienced keepers, almost NO Cherry-head is a 'dwarf' anymore. They may hit sexual maturity a bit earlier/smaller, but like most other Southern Red-foots, they often seem to average larger than the Northerners do.

There were some Cherry-heads in the early years that seemed to have stayed smaller (if I understand the story right), but most since then have grown to normal sizes regardless of the advertising.

Even knowing both parents were smaller than average when they mated, does not mean that the off-spring are dwarfs since the parents may well go on to grow much larger.
 

N2TORTS

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Madkins007 said:
As far as I can tell from bits and pieces of stories from experienced keepers, almost NO Cherry-head is a 'dwarf' anymore. They may hit sexual maturity a bit earlier/smaller, but like most other Southern Red-foots, they often seem to average larger than the Northerners do.

There were some Cherry-heads in the early years that seemed to have stayed smaller (if I understand the story right), but most since then have grown to normal sizes regardless of the advertising.

Even knowing both parents were smaller than average when they mated, does not mean that the off-spring are dwarfs since the parents may well go on to grow much larger.

Well your right in some aspects ...although I have both types...in my RF collection. with 17 RF's/Cherrys in total and knowing who mates with who ...I definitly know the breeding size of both types and who is sexually mature and who is not ( and not because of breeding actions which dosnt mean they are actually producing) .. regardless of their size. There are dwarf sub~species no doubt ... its just misleading on some info out there that " Cherry Heads" are a " smaller , dwarf species of redfoots..and I thought it would be fun to stir up convo on this ..and Proof in the pudding ' with " Oscar's " pic ....( who is 14 yrs) .....But then again with 30 years of herps and torts what do I know?
More pics and info to follow ... soon ~
JD:)
 

Redfoot NERD

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Well I don't have 30 years experience -
36_20_1.gif


My first turtle was bought for me in 1951.

Jeff.. Mark was right in more than "some aspects"! Especially if you consider "Southern" means south/southwest of Brazil. [ not South of the Amazon river ]

There are "few" true cherryheads out there.. and this one shown here is in a collection in Florida that came from a breeding group that was put together in the 80's.. hand-picked at "port of entry" in Miami! ( reliable source.. I believe I'm close enough with these facts )

Older/mature female nesting.. barely 8" SCL.. note the "captive" growth on the carapace ( probly at least 30 years old shown ) -

1DWARFNesting.jpg


And yes I know the source of your "Monster Cherry" - totally unreliable.. we discussed it on the phone.

NERD
 

cdmay

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Everybody is right--sort of--on this subject.
My experiences are like Madkins007 in that a great majority of the imported cherry heads that I have followed have grown to be about the size of most Colombian red foots, which is about 10 to 13 inches.
But then I know a lot of them that are like NERD's 8 + inch female that hasn't grown that much over the years so there is a lot of variation with the original imported animals. I've even seen a couple that never grew to be more than about 6 inches BUT--they have never bred either. I have yet to see a reliable account of a 6 or 7 inch female laying fertile eggs. Remember, in every population there are runts and if you went through a large shipment of even Surinam or Guyana red foots as I have done many times, will you find a few very old animals that are only about 8 inches.
I think that in time the second generation cherry heads will grow to be good sized animals with abundant food and a not so harsh captive environment.
Part of the problem is with the term 'dwarf', which means different things to different people. Dwarf as compared to what? A giant Chaco red foot that is 22 inches? Or a Surinam red foot that is larger, but not that much larger? Because an adult cherry might only be around 10 inches does that really make it a dwarf? If I'm 6' 3" and NERD is 5' 11" does that make him a dwarf? Andy Sury the Turtle Pimp is something like 6' 8" so does he make me a dwarf? Just because one group is a little smaller than another doesn't mean you classify it as being a 'dwarf' race. Dealers are really stretching that point.
There is also confusion when you consider that the various populations all average different adult sizes. For instance, most Colombian tortoises just don't get that big and are usually maxed out at around 12 inches although in captivity they an be pushed to be larger. Surinam/Guyana red foots can be quite a bit larger and 14 inch+ adults are fairly common. The red foots from the Mato Grasso region of Brazil evidently get to be huge and I have seen photos of 17 inch adults.
There are other distinct populations of red foots that occur in South America that simply never get imported and they may grow to greater or lesser sizes that what keepers in this country are used to.
Getting back to cherry heads, there is still the lingering misinformation about them that started with the first imports in 1983 and it keeps getting repeated. And once a mistake gets printed, as in Turtles of Venezuela, it is almost impossible to correct---I've even seen recent ads for 'True Paraguayan Dwarf Cherryheads' as if...
 

N2TORTS

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cdmay said:
Everybody is right--sort of--on this subject.
My experiences are like Madkins007 in that a great majority of the imported cherry heads that I have followed have grown to be about the size of most Colombian red foots, which is about 10 to 13 inches.
But then I know a lot of them that are like NERD's 8 + inch female that hasn't grown that much over the years so there is a lot of variation with the original imported animals. I've even seen a couple that never grew to be more than about 6 inches BUT--they have never bred either. I have yet to see a reliable account of a 6 or 7 inch female laying fertile eggs. Remember, in every population there are runts and if you went through a large shipment of even Surinam or Guyana red foots as I have done many times, will you find a few very old animals that are only about 8 inches.
I think that in time the second generation cherry heads will grow to be good sized animals with abundant food and a not so harsh captive environment.
Part of the problem is with the term 'dwarf', which means different things to different people. Dwarf as compared to what? A giant Chaco red foot that is 22 inches? Or a Surinam red foot that is larger, but not that much larger? Because an adult cherry might only be around 10 inches does that really make it a dwarf? If I'm 6' 3" and NERD is 5' 11" does that make him a dwarf? Andy Sury the Turtle Pimp is something like 6' 8" so does he make me a dwarf? Just because one group is a little smaller than another doesn't mean you classify it as being a 'dwarf' race. Dealers are really stretching that point.
There is also confusion when you consider that the various populations all average different adult sizes. For instance, most Colombian tortoises just don't get that big and are usually maxed out at around 12 inches although in captivity they an be pushed to be larger. Surinam/Guyana red foots can be quite a bit larger and 14 inch+ adults are fairly common. The red foots from the Mato Grasso region of Brazil evidently get to be huge and I have seen photos of 17 inch adults.
There are other distinct populations of red foots that occur in South America that simply never get imported and they may grow to greater or lesser sizes that what keepers in this country are used to.
Getting back to cherry heads, there is still the lingering misinformation about them that started with the first imports in 1983 and it keeps getting repeated. And once a mistake gets printed, as in Turtles of Venezuela, it is almost impossible to correct---I've even seen recent ads for 'True Paraguayan Dwarf Cherryheads' as if...

EXCELLENT !!!...... The best and most informitive response Ive seen posted on here yet! Great info ..... I knew I could drag it out of one of " you experts " ...
Thanks for the info for everyone ......
Although ....i DO know Cherrys that are laying fertile eggs at 6-7", and your right " once in print" ....its hard to recupe the original forethought.

JD~:)
 

Yvonne G

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JD:

I've noticed something new in your signature. Does this mean that the tortoise forum has been instrumental in bring two people together? Come on...give us the scoop!!
 

N2TORTS

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Redfoot NERD said:
And yes I know the source of your "Monster Cherry" - totally unreliable.. we discussed it on the phone.

NERD
Terry .... but not on this one buddy.You only know about the cherrys from Marty ... that is not the one in the Post!
JD~
 

Madkins007

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I love discussions about Cherry-heads for many reasons, but I would REALLY love for someone who was there in the early days and has been active since, to write the definitive article on them (Hint, hint, Carl!) if it has not been done already.

And if it has, where can I get a copy?
 

Neohippy

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Beauty tort.

As for tort sizes:
"It's not the size that matters, it's how you use it!" :p
 

Candy

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Great information everyone. I'm learning more and more about Dale everyday from you guys. :D I just hope he ends up to be as big as Jd's Cherryhead.
 

N2TORTS

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Candy said:
Great information everyone. I'm learning more and more about Dale everyday from you guys. :D I just hope he ends up to be as big as Jd's Cherryhead.

Well ... Candy ... here is my Two " alpha" males ... one being 10" easy ... and Oscar ( in the foreground) is pushing 12" ... But just Oscars " makeup/build" .. he is quite the big boy!
bothmales.jpg

JD~ :)
 

Candy

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Dale is now 7 3/4 inches....someday he'll be a big boy just like Oscar....I hope. :D :p
 
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