New Sulcata Tortise Owner in N. California

[Chantel]

Hello. My name is Chantel, and we just purchased a hatchling Sulcata Tortoise. The idea seemed easy and great at first glance. Just throw a heat lamp over a tank filled with hay. So I did, then I picked up our baby tortoise. Then I found this site. All this happened just yesterday. So I now know I need several things. 1. a bigger tank (we currently have a 30x12x12 tank. 2. I ditched the hay and picked up coconut coir this morning. I have flagstone for a basking rock, and I have a large log for a hiding place.

So temporarily this will work. I am guessing about 6 months? I have a thermometer/hygrometer in the tank now, and it's holding 90 deg with 74% humidity. I soaked the yet to be named baby this morning, and is that dead skin coming off the shell? Looks like clear jelly floating on the water. I put a bit of water on the shell and rubbed it with my finger and more came off. Maybe just stuff from inside the egg?

The breeder I purchased the tortoise from had them on a bed of pellets, and was feeding romaine lettus. I bought wheat grass sprouts, spring mix and have been trimming young grass from my yard as well. It seems to wilt fast.

The baby didn't poo in its water yet. Is this normal? She/he has periods of activity and rest. I have both the day and night lights, and I got up 3x last night to be sure the tank was warm and humid enough. (I may be a little over protective, but I am sure you understand!) I weighed her this morning 29 grams, but I have not measured her. Where do you take the measurements from?

The water dish also needs to be replaced. I have a small plate in there now, but will pick up a terracotta dish so it won't be as slippery.

I noticed the log needs to be deeper in the soil as the baby tried to climb over it, and fell over this morning. I will be adjusting that soon. I just don't want to over stress her/him. I took her out for some sun this morning. She didn't snack on the grass but got plenty of exercise and sun.

Thanks to everyone for any additional advice you may have. My eyes are burning as I have been reading non-stop most of the day! So much information to take in!!! Thanks again for all your help!

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi, Chantel, and welcome to the Forum!

 

[pam]

Welcome

 

[bouaboua]

Hello and Welcome. This is the place to learn and share. Welcome.

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome. It looks like you've already found the right threads to read, but just in case, I'll post them here for your convenience.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

If all goes well your tortoise will outgrow that tank in a month or two. It depends a lot on how your baby was started, which does not sound good at this point. Sorry.

The shell is not supposed to flake off like that. Looks like something cut it somehow. I would leave it alone and keep an eye on it.

Please feel free to ask lots of questions and get clarification on anything you read, but might want more explanation.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Hello Chantel

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Hello, Chantel, and a very warm welcome to Tortoise forum to you and the lovely little baby.
keep up with the soaks, put don't pull at the bits of peeling shell.
Hopefully, they'll fall off naturally as new growth occurs under them.

 

[Chantel]

Hello again and thank you all for the welcomes!!! It is much appreciated. We decided to name our Tort. "Dozer". So I still have a few questions.

1. How old are they when they start to poop?/ Should our tort be pooping? Maybe I just missed her pooping... I read on one thread that food can take several days to pass through the digestive tract. I am assuming our little tort is just a few days old. She is 2" long exactly (I looked up how to measure her/him. It said place the tape measure against a wall and her face to the wall. She/he hid, so I think that is how the pictures show to do it.) I weighed her yesterday too. 29 oz.

2. Is this about right for a new hatchling? (about 3-4 days old I am guessing).

His/her morning soak went well, but the water gets cold quick since it can't be very deep. I changed it twice to keep the baby warm. How do you guys soak them for 20 minutes without them getting cold?

3. Where do you place the food? I had been putting the grass clippings and spring mix on the flagstone, but it wilts quickly under the heat lamp.

4. Do they prefer it somewhat dry? Our little tort seems to pick out the driest pieces and ignores the fresh stuff.

5. How long do they sleep? Ours seems to sleep for a few hours, then wake up and walk around. I figure this is probably normal. She is adorable when she/he sleeps and yawns!


6. I read they grow at different rates, but is there an average chart, or a way to know that they are growing right? All parents worry right?!!!

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Tom]

1. 29 ounces? Or grams? Mine hatch at 33-39 grams, so yours is on the light side if 29 grams. Mine usually take about two to three weeks after hatching before I see their first poop. Many of them eat their own poop, but if you are doing daily soaks, you should see it in the soaking water.
2. 29 grams is on the light side. Soak them partially under a heat lamp or in the sun or someplace warm. Watch the water temperature VER carefully. Babies can over heat and die surprisingly quickly.
3. Use a 4" terra cotta plant saucer and sink it into the substrate, so the rim is nearly level with the surface. Put this as far from the heat sources as possible.
4. Not usually. They eat what they are used to eating. Just keep offering the good stuff. In no time your little tortoise will be eating everything in sight and you will have a moment of panic when you realize how much food even a little sulcata can consume. Its cute how much they can eat when they are 3 inches. Its awe inspiring when they are 4-5 inches. It is down right scary when they are 10 inches. By 12 inches you should be introducing lots of grass and grass hay to the diet for bulk and fiber.
5. Lots of sleeping is normal. Lots of yawning could indicate a problem. What are you using for night heat and what are your four temps? Warm side, cool side, basking area and overnight low?
6. I've seen 3" six year olds and 50 pound four year olds. There is no meaningful average. To much variation. Just look for steady, healthy gain week after week.

 

[JoesMum]

1. As soon as they start to eat...that doesn't mean you can find the poop in the substrate though. If your tort is eating, it will be pooping as long as it is hydrated
2. We keep changing or topping up the water
3. On a piece of slate or flat tile somewhere not next to the basking spot. They don't seem to mind if it wilts a bit
4. They're picky eaters. Serve it all damp and they'll get used to it
5. Babies sleep more than adults. New torts hide away and avoid being watched. They do spend quite a lot of time snoozing
6. There's no average. If you have your setup correct and they are eating and there are no gut parasites they will grow

 

[Chantel]

Thank you for the help. Grams (sorry bout the typo). Dozer goes in and out of the water multiple times a day. I have yet to see poop, but I won't panic yet. Temps 91 mid tank with 80% humidity. Hot side is 106 and Cool side is 86. Considering her tank is a bit small 30lx12wx12tall (20 gal), I would say this is about as variable as I can get.

Dozer has been urinating. Yesterday she peed on her flagstone while we were watching and this morning I had her in my hand, coming in from some sun therapy, and she peed on me. I am now truly a tort parent. I have been christened... LOL. I would guess this is a good sign of not being dehydrated? I'm hoping anyway....

Night heat I used a incandescent black light for reptiles. I don't have hot side and cool side temps for night. It was 88 deg. mid tank where she slept. She slept mid tank last night. I put her in her hidey, but she didn't stay. I assumed it was because it was too cool, but the night time temps did not vary much mid tank from daytime temps, so I don't believe it was too cool there. Just her preference.

I weighed her again this morning to be sure. 29 grams is spot on.

I was doing more reading (it seems all I am doing lately!) And she would have to be older than 3 days as they still have a yolk sac that has to be absorbed correct? How long does this take? Although I bought her without doing my research , The breeders mentioned that they can send the babies home right after hatching. That is why I figured she was just a few days old. Maybe closer to a week old then? I am wondering if like newborn humans, if they lose a few grams before they adjust to life after birth, and then start gaining again? I could be way off here.. Just trying to be logical. I will do some more reading on the hatching process!

Thanks for your advice Joe & Tom!

 

[JoesMum]

@Tom is your man for hatchlings. I don't have the experience

 

[Momof4]

Welcome Chantel!! Your new baby is adorable!!

Your name reminded me of my childhood friend.

 

[Tom]

Thank you for the help. Grams (sorry bout the typo). Dozer goes in and out of the water multiple times a day. I have yet to see poop, but I won't panic yet. Temps 91 mid tank with 80% humidity. Hot side is 106 and Cool side is 86. Considering her tank is a bit small 30lx12wx12tall (20 gal), I would say this is about as variable as I can get.

Dozer has been urinating. Yesterday she peed on her flagstone while we were watching and this morning I had her in my hand, coming in from some sun therapy, and she peed on me. I am now truly a tort parent. I have been christened... LOL. I would guess this is a good sign of not being dehydrated? I'm hoping anyway....

Night heat I used a incandescent black light for reptiles. I don't have hot side and cool side temps for night. It was 88 deg. mid tank where she slept. She slept mid tank last night. I put her in her hidey, but she didn't stay. I assumed it was because it was too cool, but the night time temps did not vary much mid tank from daytime temps, so I don't believe it was too cool there. Just her preference.

I weighed her again this morning to be sure. 29 grams is spot on.

I was doing more reading (it seems all I am doing lately!) And she would have to be older than 3 days as they still have a yolk sac that has to be absorbed correct? How long does this take? Although I bought her without doing my research , The breeders mentioned that they can send the babies home right after hatching. That is why I figured she was just a few days old. Maybe closer to a week old then? I am wondering if like newborn humans, if they lose a few grams before they adjust to life after birth, and then start gaining again? I could be way off here.. Just trying to be logical. I will do some more reading on the hatching process!

Thanks for your advice Joe & Tom!

Going in and out of the water is good, but its not a substitute for soaks. Daily soaks are critical especially for a small baby like yours.

Your temps sound good, but you need a larger tank. Also, I prefer to use a ceramic heating element set on a thermostat instead of a black light bulb.

Baby sulcatas avoid any sort of "hole" in the ground. I presume this is to avoid the African animal that made the hole and survive long enough to grow a bit. Just keep putting the tortoise in there. Eventually he will realize there is no tortoise eating monster in there and that it is HIS hole in the ground.

I don't agree with your breeder. They absorb their yolk sac and the umbilical scar closes up in about 10 days after hatching, IF things are done right. I prefer to hold on to them for at least another 2-4 weeks after that point to make sure they are eating well and growing. They do not lose weight at any time except right after a poop or pee. There should be steady gain from hatching on.

I'm sorry, but it sounds like you found one of the not-so-good breeders out there. Hopefully with your good care, everything will turn out just fine.

 

[Chantel]

Thanks Tom. I don't want to discount the breeder, just because I may have misinterpreted things, not knowing much myself. But I did check out her belly this morning. Is this normal? What age do they look like this?

Sorry it's a bit blurry. I offer her a lot of food. She eats when she is active, then rests. I will look into a ceramic heater, and I am looking for a larger enclosure for her. We may just build one. I will continue to soak her everyday, as well as get her sun.

 

[Chantel]

Uhg, so I looked at several threads about umbilical scars. I would guess that my baby should definitely still be in a brooder. She was in a 55 gallon tank at the breeders, with alfalfa pellets as substrate. I put her in a tank with grass hay the first day, then learned about the coco coir and put her on that yesterday. Now I am very worried about infection on that open umbilicus. I am worried that changing her environment again will stress this baby over the edge. How would you proceed???

 

[Tom]

This baby should have still been in a brooder. Once it gets all dried out and possibly infected, it can takes weeks or months to "fix" the damage. So sad that so many breeders just don't know any better.

How to proceed:
This is a judgement call. On one hand, it looks like that baby needs another week in the brooder box. But since it has already "left the nest", I don't know what effect putting it back in the "nest" would have. It just wasn't ready to be out of the nest in the first place.

My best guess at this point is to et the baby up correctly, with conditions simulating the African rainy season that they are born into, and hope for the best. I don't want damp conditions to lead to an infection on what appears to now be an open wound, but dry desiccating conditions aren't good either. Ideally, you should put the baby into a closed chamber with unprinted newspaper or butcher aper as a substrate, but still maintain 80% humidity. This will be impossible with an open top. Maintain daily soaks, and if there is no substrate, I don't think a little triple anti-biotic ointment on the affected area will hurt.

I would take suggestions from others on this too. I don't ever have this problem, so I don't have experience dealing with it. If someone tried to sell me a baby with an open umbilical scar, I would have to have a serious conversation with them about what the F*** they were thinking.

You need to let your breeder know that he/she is doing the tortoise world a great dis-service. Invite them here. Or if they prefer I would be happy to have a phone conversation with them.

 

[Chantel]

Oh, my heart is breaking. I take the blame. Yes the breeders are at fault as they should educate themselves on proper breeding, hatching and brooding prior to jumping "into business". But ultimately as the end consumer I should have educated myself prior to purchase on what to look for, instead of jumping on a fast and easy purchase. I will soak her again this afternoon and apply antibiotic ointment on her. I will also place newspaper over the current substrate, in an attempt to keep her clean. My poor little baby!

 

[Chantel]

PS - Thanks so much Tom. This kind of thing must infuriate you. Uneducated buyers and breeders rushing to make a quick buck.

 

[Tom]

PS - Thanks so much Tom. This kind of thing must infuriate you. Uneducated buyers and breeders rushing to make a quick buck.

Its sad and frustrating. I don't blame the buyers so much. I was ignorant too, despite monumental efforts on my part to learn. It took two decades for me to figure this all out and I had help from many sources. Unfortunately for all of us and the tortoises, the same decades old incorrect info is still parroted by "experts", breeders, vets, books and now internet sites. Its no wonder that so few people understand what is really going on. I was one of those people for two decades. How is a buyer supposed to know? Most of the tortoise world is still doing it the old way. You could have researched for days and still gotten mostly the same story from multiple sources. How would you know rabbit pellets, weekly soaks, and romaine lettuce was NOT the way to go, with so many sources telling you to go that way. You just happened to find our forum. Not everyone does.

I ask everyone to help spread the word. The first time one of these experienced breeders hears this, he will likely disregard it. When he keeps hearing it over and over and sees living proof, he may begin to consider it. When he begins losing significant sales because his competitors "get it" and he doesn't, he will finally reconsider and possibly change his ways. Someone has to "plant that seed", even though they may never see it come to fruition. I can't even count how many of these "seeds" I've planted, but these old-school info breeders persist. We have some right here on this forum. Their babies die on a regular basis and yet they defend their methods while anyone using methods remotely similar to mine has ZERO babies dying...

I'd say sad and despondent would be more accurate than furious.