New member, new South African

Ramsey

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Hello everyone,

I'm a proud new parent to a young/juvenile South African Pardalis Pardalis. I received him Wednesday and have done everything I can to make him feel comfy. I think everything is in line (I've done endless research) but he seems very lethargic. He is only active once each day and he did eat each of those times. Otherwise, he just sits with his eyes closed as he relaxes.

I have a flourecent UVB 10.0 and a basking light set at 95F. His enclosure is open topped at the moment with repti-bark substrate.

I got him from an online breeder who seems legit.

I don't need a link to any care-sheets or resources because I've about read them all. What I'm hoping for is to get some expert opinion on if being this lazy is normal for a 6 month old.

One thing to note: I see no discharge from his eyes or nose. I live in San Diego and have a very green backyard. I've taken him out each day to the grass and he immediately becomes alive and runs around and eats. However the moment I put him back in his home, he shuts down again.

One other thing to note is that when I see other babies at the pet stores in town, they are always lively and moving around.

I will try to post pics. Any help is appreciated, even if it's "relax, he sounds perfectly normal."

Thanks!
 

Ramsey

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Here's his habitat that I custom build just for him. I'm pretty handy so if I need to make changes, nothing is off limits.

I'm in this for the long haul and I want this guy to live 60+ yrs

It's 4ft x 3ft.

Thanks again!

IMG_20161230_100000.jpg
 

BILBO-03

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Hi and Welcome!:) you need to cover the enclosure somehow, hatchlings need a lot of humidity to grow smooth
 

cmacusa3

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You have a lot of things to fix and need to do it in a hurry. I will link you with some much needed advice. The tortoise is being keep way to cold and dry.
 

cmacusa3

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cmacusa3

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. He is only active once each day and he did eat each of those times. Otherwise, he just sits with his eyes closed as he relaxes.


I don't need a link to any care-sheets or resources because I've about read them all. What I'm hoping for is to get some expert opinion on if being this lazy is normal for a 6 month old.


I have 2 hatchlings born in Sept and both are very active most of the day, I have March baby that eats almost non stop and I have one that turned 2 last month that is almost 6 pounds, and others that stay very active. It's your choice to follow or not follow those care sheets, but they work and are in the best interest for your tort.
 

wellington

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Hello and Welcome. If you did most of your research outside this forum, I'm afraid you got a lot of old outdated bad info. You have fairly easy fixes. The over all temp needs to be 80 degrees at tort level, along with 80% humidity. Neither can be accomplished with an open top. Try to build a plastic TP over it with a center support to hang the lights straight down, not using the clamps as they tend to fail. Read the threads linked in above posts. Get a good digital temp and humidity gauge and place at tort level. A point and shoot infrared temp gun is cheap and a great quick temp reader for temping all over the enclosure.
 

Ramsey

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Thanks for the quick responses. Cmac, I have read Tom's care sheet a few times and it's very helpful. The only thing I am not compliant with is the closed top. Is there something else that I am missing? I have two thermometers on either end and I'm reading 95 and 80. Humidity varies throughout the day. Dips as low as 25 (natural) and as high as 80 when I spray twice a day.

I can redesign this enclosure and make it closed top of that's what needs to be done. However, I feel that there might be something else at play because I'm already at the right temps (just requiring a lot of work from my part).

The basking bulb is a repti-sun zoo med. It's not spiral.

Wellington, I got about half my info from this helpful site and half from various pet stores, YouTubes etc. I want to make sure my guy is active, healthy and grows a smooth shell.

Thanks for your inputs, please keep them coming.
 

cmacusa3

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You might have that temp under the lamps but no way the rest of the area stays above 80. It's room temps and that tortoise is getting cold, if it was bigger it could tolerate colder night time temps but not at this size. If you keep the house 70 then everywhere except under the lights it 70. I will let you follow whatever care you want, I'm just telling you what works.

What do you use for night heat?
 

Ramsey

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You might have that temp under the lamps but no way the rest of the area stays above 80. It's room temps and that tortoise is getting cold, if it was bigger it could tolerate colder night time temps but not at this size. If you keep the house 70 then everywhere except under the lights it 70. I will let you follow whatever care you want, I'm just telling you what works.

That makes sense. The rest of the house is 70. OK. Looks like I will be at home depot first thing in the morning to convert this to an enclosed set up.

So the next question I have is: why is he so lively when I take him outside on the grass? It's certainly cooler than it is inside.

I appreciate your help!
 

cmacusa3

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The Sun probably heats his shell and warms him up quicker. I'm just trying to help you figure out things. Make sure the lights point down in the enclosure too because if not the UVB rays may not get to him. Just read that closed chamber thread if you haven't and maybe a few more things you missed will help you.
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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You've got a lot of great advice here ! I've raised leopard torts for 16 years , I have about 23 all shapes and sizes , and many more torts ! And there is no better death wish for a tort then advice from a pet store . Now the reason your baby tort don't move around much is in the wild it's at the bottom of the food chain , and the reason it moves around so much outside is to find some place to hide so it don't get eaten !
ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1483169674.892479.jpg
 

Yvonne G

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Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

Your enclosure is on the floor. Take off your clothes and lay down on the floor next to that habitat. I guarantee you, it won't be as warm as you think it is.

Sincy you're handy, I'd build some sort of table or rack to set that up off the floor, then build a framework so you can hang your lights straight down, more in the middle of the area, and drape some plastic sheeting over the whole thing to keep that 70F degree house air off the enclosure. A plastic-draped enclosure doesn't look "pretty" but you should have the welfare of your new baby placed higher than "pretty."

I raise leopard babies. So far I'm waiting for my first SA eggs to hatch, but I've hatched many, many of the babcock type leopards. If you want to raise a bumpy, pyramided leopard, just continue on like you are, but if you want him to grow smoothly, you need to provide a warm, humid environment for him. And living on the floor in an open-topped table isn't going to do it.
 

Tom

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The basking bulb is a repti-sun zoo med. It's not spiral.

I see two bulbs over your enclosure. If one is a Repti-sun, what is the other? What about night heat? There should be at least 3 and possibly 4 heating/lighting elements over your enclosure.
1. Heat lamp for basking, set on a timer for 12-13 hours.
2. CHE, or two in a large enclosure, set on a thermostat to maintain ambient above 80, all over the entire enclosure, day and night, 24/7.
3. A long tube for UV and light, set on the same timer as the heat lamp, or set on its own timer to come on later and go off sooner to simulate dawn and dusk, if you want.
4. Additional lighting is optional, but beneficial in a closed chamber. I use regular tube style florescent bulbs in the 6500K color range, or just use a 10.0 style long tube type UV bulb.

I agree with the other posters that your temps are probably too low.

He probably goes in to hyper-drive outside out of fear of being exposed, like Grandpa explained.

Here is a direct quoted excerpt from the care sheet:
"The Actual Enclosure:
I have not been able to make any open topped enclosure work to my satisfaction. Low sided open topped enclosures like tortoise tables and sweater boxes are the worst. No amount of covering, or attempts to slow heat and humidity loss have worked well for me. There is just no way to keep the warm humid air where you want it. For about the last year and a half, I have only been using closed chambers for any tropical species of tortoise, and I couldn't be happier with them. Temperate species of tortoises that require drier conditions or a bigger night time temperature drop might fare better in the typical tortoise table set up. I will leave that for someone more experienced with those species to tell you in THEIR care sheet. Maintaining whatever temperature and humidity you want is easy and efficient in a closed chamber. They use a lot less electricity because all of your heat and humidity is trapped with nowhere to go. It also makes maintaining warm night temps a snap. Open tops allow all your warm humid air to escape up and into the room where your enclosure sits. Even if you cover most of the top, the heat lamps create a chimney effect and draw your heat and humidity up and out. Having the heat lamps outside, or on top of, the enclosure also lets the majority of the electricity you are using to produce heat float up up and away... A closed chamber can be made by covering the top of a tub or tank and minimizing ventilation, but its not easy and you burn more electricity. It works best if all the heating and lighting equipment is INSIDE the enclosure with the tortoise. Maintaining a small open topped box at 80 degrees with 80% humidity in a regular sized room that is 70 degrees and 20% humidity is VERY difficult, if not impossible in a practical sense. A closed chamber makes it easy."

You said you read it, but it appears you chose to ignore at least some elements and go a different way. Most of what it written on care for this species is wrong and based on incorrect assumptions about their lives in the wild. It looks like you have read all sorts of info and assimilated it all into a big mixture of differing advice. This usually does not work. Its certainly not working for you. My advice is to pick one person whose results you want to duplicate, and then follow the advice that brought that person those results. All of the advice.

I'll post these here so that if you did want to read them again and follow them more closely, you won't have to hunt for them.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

The last thread is titled for sulcatas, but SA leopards eat a lot more grass and grass hay than regular leopards in my experience. I feed all of my SA leopards identically to my sulcatas.

Everything you need to get this guy on the right track is in these threads. You just need to follow the advice. If you have questions or need clarification on anything, please ask. We are eager to help.
 

Tom

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Also, another VERY important note: Those clamps always fail eventually and that could lead to a disaster. Your lamps need to be hung from overhead. Hanging them will also allow you to adjust them up or down to get the correct temperatures.

P.S. I also agree with Yvonne's tip to get the enclosure up off the floor. The temperature difference from floor to ceiling can be 10-15 degrees in some houses.
 

Yvonne G

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Everyone seems to have missed the fact that there's a long tube fluorescent bulb attached to the back wall of the habitat. I'm assuming that's the UVB light. But I'm wondering what kind of bulbs are in the other fixtures. It would go a long way towards heating up that space if those two fixtures were hanging and more centered over the space.
 

Ramsey

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OK. Update. As per all the advice, I have converted his open box setup to a completely enclosed habitat. All lighting was reused. So I have the 48" Flourecent uvb 10.0 and two hanging lamps. One of the black lamps is a basking bulb set to 95F, the other lamp is a (virtually invisible) heat bulb to help get the rest of the habitat to 80F. I also installed a 3rd hook for a future lamp if needed.

I haven't yet added legs to the habitat to "raise" it off the floor, I will shoot for that tomorrow.

I've used plexiglass type acrylic sheets and the front has "sliding doors" to allow me to get in and feed him etc.


Hopefully all these changes liven my buddy up and get him feeling good and healthy. I'm monitoring the humidity now, but I honestly just want to buy some automated humidifier and set it to 80%. There's no way I can sit there all day squirting a bottle at this.
 

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cmacusa3

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That looks great, the humidity should start going up. Do you have the bottom lined with anything?

The tube light may be too high for the UVB so maybe in the place of the basking bulb you could get a mercury vapor bulb and that would also help with heat. You may need to get another CHE for night heat because that is a big space to heat. It looks fantastic though, I really like the handy work you've done.

Would love to see a few pics of the tort too! I've got a couple SA leopards myself.
 
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Ramsey

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That looks great, the humidity should start going up. Do you have the bottom lined with anything?

The tube light may be too high for the UVB so maybe in the place of the basking bulb you could get a mercury vapor bulb and that would also help with heat. You may need to get another CHE for night heat because that is a big space to heat. It looks fantastic though, I really like the handy work you've done.

Would love to see a few pics of the tort too! I've got a couple SA leopards myself.

Thanks. The substrate is repti-bark. He seems to be OK with it. I will post pics of him in a bit.

What method do most people use for an automated humidifier?

I appreciate all the help thus far!
 

cmacusa3

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Thanks. The substrate is repti-bark. He seems to be OK with it. I will post pics of him in a bit.

What method do most people use for an automated humidifier?

I appreciate all the help thus far!
I put a liner down under my bark and some coco coir so I can keep it a little damp so it doesn't rot the wood and that runs the humidity higher.

They sell humidifiers that will help if needed but I think if you get the substrate right you won't need it. I have a repti-fogger that I keep on a timer for one of my enclosures but it only kicks one twice a day.

You can also put some plants in there inside the pots and that will help too
 
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