new herman tort

[naomij]

hi, we have a new herman tort, our 1st, we are in the uk, have an open viv - sp not humid hopefully! not glass either which i heard was not good.. he was born in 07 is papers say so is around 18 months old. we are in the uk

can you please confirm for me the night temp his enclosure is supposed to be, by the way his viv is 3x2ft , do we turn all its heat source off or leave the background one on ( ahs heater)

taylor seems v active, has eaten lots- we are now giving mainly weeds with the powder coating on it as advised, when hubby collected him from the shop he was eating strawberries and salad, he was in a glass viv also.

we bathed him tonight for 10 mins and he realeased white stuff then clear stuff, is this ok? no gritt ( did check)

when can he go outside in the sun, we have a rabbit run which he will use this year then hubby plans on doing half the garden side for him which will be about 12 x6 for him,

hopefully we are doing things ok for him, the more i read the more conflicting it all gets, so who knows

 

[tortoisenerd]

Hi; welcome to the forum!

Night temperature-not below 60 F (15-16 C). You may need heat depending on the season and house temperature. Hatchlings and some torts prefer it warmer than that, but you do want a drop in temperature at night at least a little to mimic nature. A laser thermometer is great for taking temperatures quickly and accurately. You may need a heat source at night. What type of heating and lighting do you have?

What kind of powder are you giving? Please list all ingredients; sadly sometimes even products made for torts can be dangerous. Just want to double check.

That is great you have an open table. What kind of substrate? We'd love pictures of the tort and enclosure!

I assume the white stuff is urates. These are fine as long as they are not too frequent and not gritty. They can be a sign of dehydration if gritty (than increase soakings). Tortoises also pee clear/yellow urine with the urates too.

You probably want to soak 2-3 times a week for 10 minutes until you can see if the tort drinks on its own, and then make an educated decision.

He can go outside as long as the temperatures are warm enough (I'd say above 15-16C although hopefully warmer with some sun). If it was that cool, it would just be for less than an hour for example. Please please make sure the enclosure if very safe for escape, predators, shade, etc. There are lots of tips in the enclosure section and by searching. You also need to make sure no pesticides have been used for at least 3-6 months prior to the tort coming in contact with the soil and plants. If you also search (let us know if you have trouble) you can find some lists as to what Hermanns like to eat so you can plant some yummies for him to graze. That's great you have weeds for him to eat (I assume no pesticides?). Are you able to provide a pretty varied diet just from your yard? I wish I could do that but we're in an apartment.

As Taylor grows, you may want to enlarge the enclosure down the road so you don't have the shrinking enclosure effect as he grows. It seems like an ok size for now for how big I'd imagine he is.

There is a lot of conflicting information out there; I have found this forum as the best and most accurate resource though. All the members are awesome too!

Best wishes.

 

[jlyoncc1]

Congrats on your new tort!

 

[naomij]

thank you for the replies and the good advice

the supplement was were sold was komodo premium veg diet for tortoise, to sprinkle over his weeds, is does not say whats in it but advises its a holistic supplement and has
protien 14%
oils and fats 2%
fibre 10%
ash 8%
calcuim 2.2%
plus a few vits

is this ok or shall we buy something else with less protien?
will also be buying a cuttlefish later today for him.

how do we know if we are overfeeding, i think we did last night as he grazed for hours and ate so much for a little chap lol, i have taken the rest out and will put in fresh weeds, but how many?
we have a garden full of weeds and never used pecisides etc, lived here for 5 years also, i have just ordered weeds seeds and will grow them in pots which i can grow for over the winter and in part of the garden for him.

last night was like having a new born baby, we were up and down, checking on him all night to see if he was ok, he slept throughout and when his light and uvb strip light came on he yawned and sat on his slate under it .

we have a background heater but never used it last night as the temp was 66.7 in the night, so i guess we wont use the ahs background heater until we need to in the winter.

i am hoping it will be sunny this afternoon so he can go for an hour in the garden as i am home today, the rabbit run i have is 6x6 so should be big enough for this summer yes? i have heard of folk on these forums using childrens sand pits and making an outdoors living area it can be placed in, , tho i cant put the plastic top on whilst hes in it so i am not sure.
so grass area or a made up area in a sandpit, whats best?
anyway i am sure i will have plenty of other things to ask later, so thanks once again

---

forgot to say we are using 60% topsioil with 40% playsand, is this ok, do we need to wet it and how often do you clear the whole lot out and change it?

 

[Ozric]

Hi Naonij

I am in the UK too. Hermanns benefit from a calcium / VitD supplement, in the UK the most widely used one is called Neutrobal. Many keepers offer limestone flour as well, which you can get online. I'm personally against artificial foods like the one you describe. The Protein and fat is quite unnecessary, if you can offer a mixed weed diet with some leaves such as raddicio, rocket, romaine lettuce, endive, watercress.

I take a different approach to some of the other replies here regarding temperatures, especially at night time. I'm quite certain that anyhting down to 10C is perfectly alright - but it must not be damp if its getting that low. If you are keeping your tortoise indoors he does not need any artificial heat at night, unless your house is frequently below 10C and/or is very draughty or damp.

The important thing is that the tortoise gets thoroughly warmed up to eating temperature and active at least for a while most days. I know these lower nightime temperatures are OK because I keep my Hermanns in accommodation outside in the summer as many others in the UK do as well. My experinece is that Hermanns thrive on having access to outside, and there are so many ways of making an outside enclosure - your ideas sound good. Grass on the whole is not the best thing for Hermanns to have underfoot- it gets cold and wet easily and when it grows long you cna never find the tortoise! I'd say don't keep the tortoise on playsand in a pit.

Your soil and sand mixture sounds good. If you bathe your tort regularly most of the waste products goes in to the bath water. This helps keep the habitat cleaner! How often to throw out your substrate depends a lot on how big an area it is.

Hermanns love being outside, but they don't get active on cooler days, and wet and cold at the same time is not good. On a sunny day the tortoise can capture what heat their is and become active and feed even if the air temperature is well below say 18C.

I always recommend keepers think about getting a coldframe for Hermanns when outside. Its excellent for warming up. The tortoise must have access to shade and an exit from the frame into a protected enclsoure. It's much easier than it sounds, but it's important to make sure there is no way out as the tortoise will explore the boundaries and escape if he can! You've got off to a great start - stay on the forum for more ideas!

 

[naomij]

Hi Naonij

I am in the UK too. Hermanns benefit from a calcium / VitD supplement, in the UK the most widely used one is called Neutrobal.

have been and bought this and thrown the other lot out , i just sprinled a little on his weeds, hope this was ok and enough, do i do this every time he eats or just a few times a week, he is about 18 months old

he at Many keepers offer limestone flour as well, which you can get online.

i have ordered this online


I take a different approach to some of the other replies here regarding temperatures, especially at night time. I'm quite certain that anyhting down to 10C is perfectly alright - but it must not be damp if its getting that low. If you are keeping your tortoise indoors he does not need any artificial heat at night, unless your house is frequently below 10C and/or is very draughty or damp.

will monitor him closely, he is sleeping soundly ,

i was hoping to have him outside for an hour today but it rained, have decided to upgrade the guienea pig to a bigger cage so taylor can have his cage for outside until the en is done, its plenty big enough plus he will be safe from cats etc

Your soil and sand mixture sounds good. If you bathe your tort regularly most of the waste products goes in to the bath water. This helps keep the habitat cleaner! How often to throw

I always recommend keepers think about getting a coldframe for Hermanns when outside. Its excellent for warming up. The tortoise must have access to shade and an exit from the frame into a protected enclsoure. It's much easier than it sounds, but it's important to make sure there is no way out as the tortoise will explore the boundaries and escape if he can! You've got off to a great start - stay on the forum for more ideas!

would you say a coldframe than a big shed with access and a laamp? or both?

many thanks
can i also ask, how many times a day/week do you feed and how doi know whats too much or not enough?will upload pics tomor ,hopefully he is the right size for his age, sure someone will tell me if not

 

[tortoisenerd]

naomij-

I agree it's good you switched to just the calcium. There is some disagreement here on the forum whether the torts need Vit D3 when they have UVB and/or sunlight. I think they should not get it as D3 is fat soluble and they could potential overdose on it. Other believe it's a growing tort and they need it. Personally, my tort only gets pure calcium powder with no additives, and a cuttlebone.

A rule of thumb is 20 minutes of eating unless they are outside grazing (where they are getting a lot of exercise). I feed my tort a pile of salad about half the size of him, but do let him eat more than 20 minutes because he's a bit slow. I don't chop up the food much and make him work at it, and he'll come back and graze throughout the day. Some days if he's more active he'll want an afternoon snack, but also keep in mind he's a little younger than your tort.

I'd keep a close eye on Straight Carapace Length (see link) and weight, and check the following growth chart.
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/measuring.htm
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/jacksonratio.pdf

I'd weigh and measure weekly or monthly as you see fit, and adjust the food quantities accordingly. If the tort leaves food everyday, you are probably feeding too much. If you see it pacing around where it gets fed looking for more, than maybe it needs more.

I have heard some Hermann owners in the UK keep their torts a little colder at night than us in the US, so I would recommend keeping an eye on him and see how it goes. I do doubt you'd need any heat in summer though.

I'd say soil is probably best for outdoors, with some grass (I don't think they are huge on grass but I'm not familiar to much with Hermanns; hopefully someone else can chime in). Pure sand is not good. You need some shade, a water source, and the fence or whatever dug down a bit to try and prevent escape. I'd be very very cautious with predators. Personally, unless it was wired in I wouldn't leave the tort unattended until it was full grown, and maybe not even then. I'm an over protective tort mommy though!

Is the topsoil&sand combo for an indoor enclosure (the viv?). If so, then yes you should pour water on it as needed and stir it up to maintain the moisture/humidity. Especially under any heat/light source. You want it moist but not damp; you should not be able to squeeze water out for example, but it should feel and look moist. You should spot clean daily if possible, and completely change it out every few months or when it starts to smell or look old. You may not find too much mess--many torts will use the potty in their soakings, water dish, or on or near their food. I have very little mess with my tort. He poops and pees on his slate tile where I feed him, or in his water. I mostly clean the tile daily, clean his water daily, and pick up any poops. With the dirt, it is tough to see poop, so don't be alarmed if you can't find it, but try to keep an eye on his bodily functions at first. Most of the time they will be a little stopped up when you first get them, but after awhile they should go at least every other day. Some torts eat their poop, but Hermanns aren't especially known for that (something to keep in mind).

For the outdoor enclosure, you could build a little warm up area with wood and a ceramic heat emitter or something for example (like a little house for him). I'm pretty sure we have some UK visitors here that have posted about this; also see http://www.shelledwarriors.co.uk I believe for some tips; they have a forum too.

Do you have a vet? I'd make sure to have on on hand for emergencies that is experienced with torts. I'd also get the tort checked over and a fecal sample checked for parasites. This is important if you are not familiar with exactly what to look for (the exam). Also gets you on the books at the vet so if an emergency pops up you are prepared and the tort is an established patients there. Too often we get posts about an owner needing a vet right away for a sick tort; by that time it's usually too late to find one and get fit in the schedule as a new patient.

 

[Ozric]

Hi again Naomij

I suggest you add a very light dusting of neutrobal several times a week for an 18 month Hermann. It is true that there are differing views about using supplements.

I feed my Hermanns every day, with the occasional day off. I let them eat for about 20 minutes. But I have one small one that is not growing much - he gets to eat for as long as he wants, as does one of my juveniles who is always at the lower end of the weight range for her size.

A rabbit or guinea pig cage can be really good for letting your tortoise have some access to outside until you get a more permanent enclsoure set up.

At 18 months your tortoise is still really a baby, so he'l get cold quicker when temps go down. The rain as such doesn't bother them, but if it's cool as well, they just don't get active.

I tried using a wooden dog kennel with a lamp in it, but this didn't work for me. On nice days it was going to be far too hot in there with the lamp on, and I'm not here 24/7 to turn lamps on and off. On really cold days into say October the lamp was far too weak to keep the tortoise warm enough. Heating sheds in the spring and autumn can get very expensive. On days when the sun is out you don't want your tortoise sitting in a shed under a lamp. But maybe this would work for you.

I'm a fan of the coldframes, I've got one in use and I'm about to get another one. Standard coldframe glass or acrylic cuts out all the UVB and this is the only disadvantage I can think of to having a coldframe. Its possible to buy special acrylic that allows 60% of UVB to pass through. I'd admit this is a hassle and maybe not necessary. A tortoise that is mainly kept outdoors will have access to a lot of quality UV when in the enclosure. Even the best lamps cannot compete with the real sun for UV.

The best way to know if you feeding too much is to carefully weigh your tortoise at regular intervals and keep a note of the weight. A few grammes per month increase is fine.

This time of year I only have my Hermanns outside on the better days. But once into June, they will be out there all the time. A coldframe and wooden shelter is enough for them, but a lot depends on the weather where you are. Some keepers bring their tortoise inside the (human) house every night for security but I personally find this confuses them. With a lot of these things, you need to find the answers that are right for you and your tort.

 

[tortoisenerd]

The appropriate weight increase varies by age, so I wouldn't agree that a few a month is the limit (a few a week might be ok depending on the age). I'm actually not sure what is appropriate for the age of Taylor though, but I wanted to chime in that it will vary. A percentage of weight might be more reasonable than specifying grams.

 

[Ozric]

Kate is quite right to suggest a percentage, but I've never seen one quoted! For larger tortoises it's correct that a few grammes per month would be on the low side, but with a little one, I honestly believe it isn't.

 

[tortoisenerd]

My little guy gains a few grams each week sometimes, but is still doing ok on the growth chart and he's growing evenly (no pyramiding, etc). I've just kept an eye on it but fed him the same amount. Or else, he paces on his slate tile where I feed him, looking up waiting for more! I can't say no to his little face. awww

 

[naomij]

THANKYOU all,

well taylor seems to be eating a little in the mornings then again he paces in the eve so i feed him more, he has not eaten dandilions yet, even tho i thought they loved them. should i cut them up small or make him work like they do in the wild for them and leave them whole, do i feed dandilion and weed stems or just the leaves/flowers?

 

[tortoisenerd]

That sounds about right (I assume he's bigger than my Trevor). I recently gave him a dandelion flower and he couldn't tear it himself, so I helped, I'd observe to see what you need to for for Taylor and take it from there. I do the minimum necessary.

---

One more thing (I didn't see this at first): You can feed all parts of the dandelion. My little guy likes the leaves best, and nibbles at the flowers if I pull them apart. I can get the leaves easiest (at the health food store), so he hasn't had too many flowers yet. He doesn't like the stem of the flower (doesn't have enough size/strength to eat it) although it's edible. He also can't eat the stalky parts of the leaves either. If the tort is big enough you can put things in there whole as they get them in the wild. I like to make the little guy work at things unless it's too much. He'll eventually get frustrated and give up if it's too difficult, so I'll do the minimum necessary to get him to eat. Also keep in mind in the wild, the plant is typically rooted in the ground so it's actually easier to munch on than something sitting loose on the ground, as there is nothing holding it back for the tort to take a bite.