New Desert Tortoise Hatchling Owner Seeking Advice

[DesertHerd]

Hi All,

I am new to this forum but happy to be here to learn and hopefully one day contribute! My grandmas desert tortoise laid 9 eggs this year and in September 7 of them hatched. My grandma gave me the 7 hatchlings. They have been seemingly great the past 3 months until this week when I went to turn on their lights and one had passed. I was to upset to deal with it so my father took him out of the enclosure. He said that the hatchling was bloated and looked like his insides were coming out his stomach. What could have happened when he seemed fine the day before.

Since then another hatchling has been sluggish and isnt eating or moving much. I took them all to a vet and the vet was more so saying that we should be happy that even 6 made it as most times they dont and there isnt much we can do. They gave me an antibiotic nose drop for the sluggish hatchling but that was all. So I am asking for guidance on if anyone knows anything or has any tips or advice.

I moved the sluggish tortoise to his own little enclosure to monitor him better and to see if he was just getting overwhelmed by the others. He was the runt of the litter since we got him. He now is just laying and bobbing his head and arms in and out. It almost looks as if he is dry heaving.

Extra info:

- Feeding: I used to just feed them Kale with lettuce or cabbage/carrots sometimes added. I am now feeding them Mustard Greens, Collard Greed, Parsley and Grass Hay.

- Enclosure: I used to have them in a tank with dry dirt in the bottom but after reading that that might dehydrate them I now have them on coconut coir. I have a UVB/UVA heat light and just recently added a dedicated UVB coil light. They have a heating pad under their hiding area where they rest and burrow down at night.

- Care: I used to soak the turtles a couple times a week but always had a water tray for them that was big enough for them to lay in in their enclosure. I now soak them daily and keep water in their enclosure.

I would love any feedback/advice/criticism! My only goal is to help these tortoises thrive.

 

[Yvonne G]

Aw-w-w! Just so darned cute!!

Here's what I would do if I had one dead, one sluggish and five hopefully normal desert tortoise babies:

Get a large plastic tote, and by 'large' I mean floor space, not tall sides. Add fir bark (Zoo Med Forest Floor, Repti Bark, etc.) about 3" deep, and wet it good. Get some sort of hiding place that is ok to get wet. I used my radiant heat panel set on bricks as the hiding place. Use a thermostat with the RHP and strive for 80°-85°F degrees overall, day and night. In order to maintain a steady warm, humid temperature cover the enclosure. I'd NEVER use the UVB coil light because they have been known to damage baby tortoises' eyes (that may be what's wrong with the sluggish one).

I'm using my Kindle right now and my pictures are on my computer, so I'm gonna' close this and go in the other room to the computer. BRB

 

[Yvonne G]

Buy two of these:

ZOO MED Reptile Lamp Stand - Chewy.com

Buy Zoo Med Reptile Lamp Stand at Chewy.com. FREE shipping and the BEST customer service!

www.chewy.com

and place one at each end of the tote. Then drape a sheet of 4mil plastic over the whole thing. It will look something like this:



I tuck the plastic under the tote on the back side and partially on the sides. You can cut a viewing hole or not.

For lights I use the tube type UVB fluorescent bulb and reflector similar to this:

ZOO MED ReptiSun 10.0 T5-HO UVB Fluorescent Reptile Lamp, 54 x 46-in - Chewy.com

Buy Zoo Med ReptiSun 10.0 T5-HO UVB Fluorescent Reptile Lamp, 54 x 46-in at Chewy.com. FREE shipping and the BEST customer service!

www.chewy.com

ZOO MED ReptiSun T5-HO Reptile Terrarium Hood, 14-in - Chewy.com

Buy Zoo Med ReptiSun T5-HO Reptile Terrarium Hood, 14-in at Chewy.com. FREE shipping and the BEST customer service!

www.chewy.com

These pictues from chewy.com of illustrations only. You can probably buy these items cheaper elsewhere.

For heat I use the RHP (radiant heat panel) set on two bricks laying on their edge. The RHP along with what heat comes off the light is all I've ever needed to keep the correct temperature in the covered enclosure.

I add lots of plants because baby tortoises are prey and they feel much more comfy when they're not out in the open. It would look something like this:



I feed a nice variety of greens, and because I feed an awful lot of tortoises I can buy quite a nice variety of greens, escarole, endive, radicchio, turnip greens, mustard greens, kale, zucchini, green leaf lettuce, romaine, and I chop it up into bite sized pieces. Into that I'll mix things from outside like fillaree, grape leaves, mulberry leaves, clover, fresh grass, edible weeds. And I buy dried food items from kapidolofarms.com like dandelion, mallow, etc. I mix that all together and put enough on a tile to have a little still there at the end of the day. If they have cleaned it up, I didn't put out enough.

I think once you get rid of the bulb, and add a humid environment, keeping a steady temperature day and night, your sluggish one will perk up and the others will stay perky.

 

[DesertHerd]

Aw-w-w! Just so darned cute!!

Here's what I would do if I had one dead, one sluggish and five hopefully normal desert tortoise babies:

Get a large plastic tote, and by 'large' I mean floor space, not tall sides. Add fir bark (Zoo Med Forest Floor, Repti Bark, etc.) about 3" deep, and wet it good. Get some sort of hiding place that is ok to get wet. I used my radiant heat panel set on bricks as the hiding place. Use a thermostat with the RHP and strive for 8 0°-85°F degrees overall, day and night. In order to maintain a steady warm, humid temperature cover the enclosure. I'd NEVER use the UVB coil light because they have been known to damage baby tortoises' eyes (that may be what's wrong with the sluggish one).

I'm using my Kindle right now and my pictures are on my computer, so I'm gonna' close this and go in the other room to the computer. BRB

Thanks for the insight! The “sluggish” one has been slugish since before I got the UVB bulb so I dont believe thats what did it. I just got the UVB bulb today so I will keep it off! The little guy has seemingly gotten worse since giving him the antibiotic drop and is now not moving excpet for the constant gasping motion.

 

[Tom]

Hi All,

I am new to this forum but happy to be here to learn and hopefully one day contribute! My grandmas desert tortoise laid 9 eggs this year and in September 7 of them hatched. My grandma gave me the 7 hatchlings. They have been seemingly great the past 3 months until this week when I went to turn on their lights and one had passed. I was to upset to deal with it so my father took him out of the enclosure. He said that the hatchling was bloated and looked like his insides were coming out his stomach. What could have happened when he seemed fine the day before.

Since then another hatchling has been sluggish and isnt eating or moving much. I took them all to a vet and the vet was more so saying that we should be happy that even 6 made it as most times they dont and there isnt much we can do. They gave me an antibiotic nose drop for the sluggish hatchling but that was all. So I am asking for guidance on if anyone knows anything or has any tips or advice.

I moved the sluggish tortoise to his own little enclosure to monitor him better and to see if he was just getting overwhelmed by the others. He was the runt of the litter since we got him. He now is just laying and bobbing his head and arms in and out. It almost looks as if he is dry heaving.

Extra info:

- Feeding: I used to just feed them Kale with lettuce or cabbage/carrots sometimes added. I am now feeding them Mustard Greens, Collard Greed, Parsley and Grass Hay.

- Enclosure: I used to have them in a tank with dry dirt in the bottom but after reading that that might dehydrate them I now have them on coconut coir. I have a UVB/UVA heat light and just recently added a dedicated UVB coil light. They have a heating pad under their hiding area where they rest and burrow down at night.

- Care: I used to soak the turtles a couple times a week but always had a water tray for them that was big enough for them to lay in in their enclosure. I now soak them daily and keep water in their enclosure.

I would love any feedback/advice/criticism! My only goal is to help these tortoises thrive.

Good advice from Yvonne, but most of what you find for this species on line and from vets is all wrong.

They need to be soaked every day until they get some size. Its so easy to keep babies fo this species alive with some hydration and a few care routine tweaks. Read this for all that info:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[DesertHerd]

Good advice from Yvonne, but most of what you find for this species on line and from vets is all wrong.

They need to be soaked every day until they get some size. Its so easy to keep babies fo this species alive with some hydration and a few care routine tweaks. Read this for all that info:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Thanks for that, I will be sure to read through that all today and make adjustments. Any tips for helping the little guy that isnt moving and just gasping for air and now making a slight hissing sound as he gasps. Hate to see him struggling and would like to help him asap. He was just sluggish until I gave him the antibiotic drop then the gasping started, is this normal? What should I do?

 

[Tom]

Thanks for that, I will be sure to read through that all today and make adjustments. Any tips for helping the little guy that isnt moving and just gasping for air and now making a slight hissing sound as he gasps. Hate to see him struggling and would like to help him asap. He was just sluggish until I gave him the antibiotic drop then the gasping started, is this normal? What should I do?

Sad to say that it may be too late for that one. If housed on dry substrate, or outdoors, and not getting soaked daily, the damage is irreversible.

What antibiotic did you use? Little babies don't handle meds well. It usually taxes their little systems belong what they can handle, and its made worse when there are already other problems.

Here is an explanation of what happens with the dry routine:

"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"

I've heard this term for many years and I don't like it. Its a way to excuse our ignorance and failure. I will agree that an occasional hatchling is born that is just not going to make it no matter what anybody does, but MOST of them, if they make it full term and hatch, SHOULD survive and...

tortoiseforum.org

By contrast, here is how babies of most species should be started:

How To Incubate Eggs And Start Hatchlings

I put my eggs in a plastic shoe box with a lid on it and put the shoe box in the incubator. You can drill a couple of very small holes around the top of the container, but not on the lid. I use vermiculite as an incubation media. I mix it in a 1 : 1 ratio with water by weight for Sulcatas and...

tortoiseforum.org

This is a lot to take in. Questions are welcome.

 

[DesertHerd]

Sad to say that it may be too late for that one. If housed on dry substrate, or outdoors, and not getting soaked daily, the damage is irreversible.

What antibiotic did you use? Little babies don't handle meds well. It usually taxes their little systems belong what they can handle, and its made worse when there are already other problems.

Here is an explanation of what happens with the dry routine:

"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"

I've heard this term for many years and I don't like it. Its a way to excuse our ignorance and failure. I will agree that an occasional hatchling is born that is just not going to make it no matter what anybody does, but MOST of them, if they make it full term and hatch, SHOULD survive and...

tortoiseforum.org

By contrast, here is how babies of most species should be started:

How To Incubate Eggs And Start Hatchlings

I put my eggs in a plastic shoe box with a lid on it and put the shoe box in the incubator. You can drill a couple of very small holes around the top of the container, but not on the lid. I use vermiculite as an incubation media. I mix it in a 1 : 1 ratio with water by weight for Sulcatas and...

tortoiseforum.org

This is a lot to take in. Questions are welcome.

This is the antibiotic, Vet said to give once a day for 10-14 days and today was the first day I gave it.

In terms of the dry substrate I never even thought to have it be moist because I got them from my grandma who has had dozens of hatchlings laid and grow to adulthood and never soaked them or did anything other than bring them inside at nights when it got cold. Hopefully its not too late for the rest of my hatchlings to make it now that ive made the necessary adjustments.

 

[zovick]

This is the antibiotic, Vet said to give once a day for 10-14 days and today was the first day I gave it.

In terms of the dry substrate I never even thought to have it be moist because I got them from my grandma who has had dozens of hatchlings laid and grow to adulthood and never soaked them or did anything other than bring them inside at nights when it got cold. Hopefully its not too late for the rest of my hatchlings to make it now that ive made the necessary adjustments.

The medication you posted is eye drops, correct? These will not cause harm to the tortoise's system as would an injectable antibiotic, so you may disregard the warnings Tom posted above which pertain to injections.

I would put the drops into the eyes and each nostril as well once a day for the 10-14 days. It should help.

 

[DesertHerd]

The medication you posted is eye drops, correct? These will not cause harm to the tortoise's system as would an injectable antibiotic, so you may disregard the warnings Tom posted above which pertain to injections.

I would put the drops into the eyes and each nostril as well once a day for the 10-14 days. It should help.

By the looks of it I am not sure he will make it 10-14 days. He hasnt moved in hours and is just constantly gasping for air. Im not sure what I can do.

 

[zovick]

By the looks of it I am not sure he will make it 10-14 days. He hasnt moved in hours and is just constantly gasping for air. Im not sure what I can do.

That is a bad sign. The tortoise most likely has pneumonia. If you really want to save the tortoise, you probably need to take it to an exotics vet SOON. it sounds as though it WILL need antibiotic injections to save it.

I know a very good exotics vet in LA. Her name is Laila Proenca. She has treated a number of my tiny baby tortoises when she was a resident here in GA at the UGA Veterinary Teaching Hospital. If you go to see her, tell her I referred you.

Here is the most recent contact info for Dr. Proenca:

Laila M. Proença, MV, DVM, MS, PhD

Director of the Exotic Animal Medicine Program
VCA Animal Hospitals, 12401 W. Olympic Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90064, 1 (800) 966-1822

Associate Veterinarian at the Avian & Exotics Department
VCA West Los Angeles Animal Hospital, 1900 S Sepulveda Blvd,
Los Angeles, CA 90025 (310) 473-2951

 

[DesertHerd]

Sad to say that it may be too late for that one. If housed on dry substrate, or outdoors, and not getting soaked daily, the damage is irreversible.

What antibiotic did you use? Little babies don't handle meds well. It usually taxes their little systems belong what they can handle, and its made worse when there are already other problems.

Here is an explanation of what happens with the dry routine:

"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"

I've heard this term for many years and I don't like it. Its a way to excuse our ignorance and failure. I will agree that an occasional hatchling is born that is just not going to make it no matter what anybody does, but MOST of them, if they make it full term and hatch, SHOULD survive and...

tortoiseforum.org

By contrast, here is how babies of most species should be started:

How To Incubate Eggs And Start Hatchlings

I put my eggs in a plastic shoe box with a lid on it and put the shoe box in the incubator. You can drill a couple of very small holes around the top of the container, but not on the lid. I use vermiculite as an incubation media. I mix it in a 1 : 1 ratio with water by weight for Sulcatas and...

tortoiseforum.org

This is a lot to take in. Questions are welcome.

How do I prevent this from happening to the other 5 or are you saying its too late

Sad to say that it may be too late for that one. If housed on dry substrate, or outdoors, and not getting soaked daily, the damage is irreversible.

What antibiotic did you use? Little babies don't handle meds well. It usually taxes their little systems belong what they can handle, and its made worse when there are already other problems.

Here is an explanation of what happens with the dry routine:

"Hatchling Failure Syndrome"

I've heard this term for many years and I don't like it. Its a way to excuse our ignorance and failure. I will agree that an occasional hatchling is born that is just not going to make it no matter what anybody does, but MOST of them, if they make it full term and hatch, SHOULD survive and...

tortoiseforum.org

By contrast, here is how babies of most species should be started:

How To Incubate Eggs And Start Hatchlings

I put my eggs in a plastic shoe box with a lid on it and put the shoe box in the incubator. You can drill a couple of very small holes around the top of the container, but not on the lid. I use vermiculite as an incubation media. I mix it in a 1 : 1 ratio with water by weight for Sulcatas and...

tortoiseforum.org

This is a lot to take in. Questions are welcome.

He didnt make it.. How do I keep this from happening to my other 5 hatchlings since they were all in the same environment the past 2.5 months. They always had a water dish with them that could fully fit 2 of them but I only soaked all of them once or twice a week but their enclosure was dirt which understandable wasnt good.

Is there a chance that this was due to RI instead of being Hatchling Failure Syndrome and the rest of the hatchlings arent already doomed? From the reading you sent it seemed like HFS took weeks to be fatal whereas my little guy passed in 3 days. I guess I am just looking to do whatever I have to in order to keep these 5 thriving but also dont want to get hopes up if you are saying its too late.

These were the last batch of hatchlings that my grandmas tortoise laid before she moved into a retirement home and they were supposed to grow old with me and my significant other as we start a family so I am very distraught to know that two of them not making it could be attributed to my own mistakes. Any help for the rest of the herd would be greatly appreciated since you seem to have great knowledge into this.

 

[TaylorTortoise]

By the looks of it I am not sure he will make it 10-14 days. He hasnt moved in hours and is just constantly gasping for air. Im not sure what I can do.

Can we see pictures? I would Try my best to raise temps and get a larger plastic tub so they have enough room to roam around.

 

[Jan A]

How do I prevent this from happening to the other 5 or are you saying its too late

He didnt make it.. How do I keep this from happening to my other 5 hatchlings since they were all in the same environment the past 2.5 months. They always had a water dish with them that could fully fit 2 of them but I only soaked all of them once or twice a week but their enclosure was dirt which understandable wasnt good.

Is there a chance that this was due to RI instead of being Hatchling Failure Syndrome and the rest of the hatchlings arent already doomed? From the reading you sent it seemed like HFS took weeks to be fatal whereas my little guy passed in 3 days. I guess I am just looking to do whatever I have to in order to keep these 5 thriving but also dont want to get hopes up if you are saying its too late.

These were the last batch of hatchlings that my grandmas tortoise laid before she moved into a retirement home and they were supposed to grow old with me and my significant other as we start a family so I am very distraught to know that two of them not making it could be attributed to my own mistakes. Any help for the rest of the herd would be greatly appreciated since you seem to have great knowledge into this.

Take it one step at a time. Do the things most important: a big enough enclosure so they're not on top of each other & can walk around because they need to walk in order to digest their food; the right temperatures as set out in the care sheets; the right lighting, which you're addressing now; the right humidity levels, which requires substrate like orchid bark or coco coir to help with keeping humidity levels up; the right foods; daily soaking 20-30 minutes in warm water which helps in hydration & in pooping & peeing.

If one of them develops RI or other symptoms of illness, immediately isolate it from the others.

I am so sorry you lost 2 of your hatchlings. But you have the other 5 to think about & getting things right for them. We are here to help. Seek out owners with desert tortoise experience like Yvonne or Tom.

 

[Tom]

How do I prevent this from happening to the other 5 or are you saying its too late

He didnt make it.. How do I keep this from happening to my other 5 hatchlings since they were all in the same environment the past 2.5 months. They always had a water dish with them that could fully fit 2 of them but I only soaked all of them once or twice a week but their enclosure was dirt which understandable wasnt good.

Is there a chance that this was due to RI instead of being Hatchling Failure Syndrome and the rest of the hatchlings arent already doomed? From the reading you sent it seemed like HFS took weeks to be fatal whereas my little guy passed in 3 days. I guess I am just looking to do whatever I have to in order to keep these 5 thriving but also dont want to get hopes up if you are saying its too late.

These were the last batch of hatchlings that my grandmas tortoise laid before she moved into a retirement home and they were supposed to grow old with me and my significant other as we start a family so I am very distraught to know that two of them not making it could be attributed to my own mistakes. Any help for the rest of the herd would be greatly appreciated since you seem to have great knowledge into this.

There is no way to know how much damage has been done by the dry routine. All you can do is get them hydrated and into the correct environment with the correct temps, which is all in the care sheet, and Yvonne's suggestions too.

This is not your fault, nor your mistake. This is a mistake made by others that has been passed down for generations. Only recently and only a small percentage of the tortoise community has figured this out. We are working to correct the misinformation, but the old established wrong info is well entrenched. You are not the first person to go through this. I've been able to save most of the dehydrated babies that have come my way, so don't give up.

Start soaking them for 40 minutes a day. Keep the water warm the whole time. Get the temps and lighting correct. Start feeding the right foods, which is tougher this time of year, but still doable. If you must feed grocery store greens, use the right ones and add amendments. Use a humid hide and deep damp substrate. Get them outside in a safe enclosure for some warm sunshine a couple of times a week for an hour or so.

We will help you. You are not alone.

 

[TaylorTortoise]

Disregard. Just saw previous posts. I’m sorry to hear about your little one. You need to give daily soaks as hatchlings do dehydrate fast. Higher temps and needed humidity and change the substrate to something like coco coir? Orchard bark

 

[TaylorTortoise]

*Knock on wood* my hatchling has been thriving but I was extra precarious those first few months. He is now 6 mo old. Almost out of that scary hatchling survival phase! I give him a PSR level of 5.0 lol

 

[MaNaAk]

Aw-w-w! Just so darned cute!!

Here's what I would do if I had one dead, one sluggish and five hopefully normal desert tortoise babies:

Get a large plastic tote, and by 'large' I mean floor space, not tall sides. Add fir bark (Zoo Med Forest Floor, Repti Bark, etc.) about 3" deep, and wet it good. Get some sort of hiding place that is ok to get wet. I used my radiant heat panel set on bricks as the hiding place. Use a thermostat with the RHP and strive for 80°-85°F degrees overall, day and night. In order to maintain a steady warm, humid temperature cover the enclosure. I'd NEVER use the UVB coil light because they have been known to damage baby tortoises' eyes (that may be what's wrong with the sluggish one).

I'm using my Kindle right now and my pictures are on my computer, so I'm gonna' close this and go in the other room to the computer. BRB

My tortoises are twenty-two years older than me so I don't have experience of raising them from a hatchling however I think you're doing well and I can imagine how you felt when one passed. They are all so so cute and so lucky to have you. After seventy-one one of my Greeks can't hibernate this year but I suggest you follow Yvonne G's advice.

MaNaAk

 

[DesertHerd]

There is no way to know how much damage has been done by the dry routine. All you can do is get them hydrated and into the correct environment with the correct temps, which is all in the care sheet, and Yvonne's suggestions too.

This is not your fault, nor your mistake. This is a mistake made by others that has been passed down for generations. Only recently and only a small percentage of the tortoise community has figured this out. We are working to correct the misinformation, but the old established wrong info is well entrenched. You are not the first person to go through this. I've been able to save most of the dehydrated babies that have come my way, so don't give up.

Start soaking them for 40 minutes a day. Keep the water warm the whole time. Get the temps and lighting correct. Start feeding the right foods, which is tougher this time of year, but still doable. If you must feed grocery store greens, use the right ones and add amendments. Use a humid hide and deep damp substrate. Get them outside in a safe enclosure for some warm sunshine a couple of times a week for an hour or so.

We will help you. You are not alone.

Thanks for the tips and kind words. I do have a question about lighting/heat. I updraged the enclosure to over double the original size and I am having trouble heating it. I read your previous posts about heat/light and got 2 75W incandescent flood bulbs which are more powerful than you recommended and even those arent warming the whole tank. Its warm directly under them but then inches outside of where they are aiming the coco coir is cold to the touch. Is this normal? I put one of those color changing strip lights on the side of the cage at walking level and it says the temp is barely 70. I have a temp probe and it says that the parts that feel cold to the touch to me are 73, is that fine? my temps rn are 100 basking, 85 under the other flood light (where their humid hide will go), and then 73 in the cooler corner. Thoughts? Thanks avain for your continued guidance

 

[Yvonne G]

Thanks for the tips and kind words. I do have a question about lighting/heat. I updraged the enclosure to over double the original size and I am having trouble heating it. I read your previous posts about heat/light and got 2 75W incandescent flood bulbs which are more powerful than you recommended and even those arent warming the whole tank. Its warm directly under them but then inches outside of where they are aiming the coco coir is cold to the touch. Is this normal? I put one of those color changing strip lights on the side of the cage at walking level and it says the temp is barely 70. I have a temp probe and it says that the parts that feel cold to the touch to me are 73, is that fine? my temps rn are 100 basking, 85 under the other flood light (where their humid hide will go), and then 73 in the cooler corner. Thoughts? Thanks avain for your continued guidance

You have to cover the enclosure like I suggested