New 3 toed box turtle hatchlings, critique our setup....

[Twisted]

So long story short, a year and a half ago my son got a baby box turtle from the pet store. We bought the entire aquarium setup, lights, heat, etc. We followed the care instructions by the store (which is generally a good store with good info), turtle was doing great, but a month ago he was no more. No one is quite exactly sure why, the store says we did everything right. Only thing I can come up with since then is possibly poor air circulation and/or poor lighting.

So, after visiting a reptile expo, talking to some turtle/tortoise rescues, reading a lot online, buying a highly recommended book, and acquiring a couple new baby 3 toe I want you our setup critiqued to tell us if we should change anything.

I mail ordered a couple captive bread 3 toe that were hatched earlier this year. I picked up a concrete mixing pan from Home Depot and set it up as pictured. Under the right third is a heat mat and according to the laser temp that side tends to hover about 80 degrees on the substrate surface.

The light is a ZooMed 10.0 UVB compact fluorescent in a Flukers clamp light.

The rock is actually a fossil we dug up from the fossil bed behind the high school in Fossil, Oregon earlier this year.

We keep it sprayed down and moist. Two humidity gauges show it to be 50% at the very lowest and usually more like 65-70%.

I am thinking they need a little more heat, especially as winter will be coming and keeping the house a little cooler. I am going to order another clamp lamp and some form of heat. I'm not a fan of heat lamps so might get a ceramic heater or something and a thermostat.

For the first week we had them they wouldn't eat. We chopped up veggies and fruit but no luck. I have roaches for my tarantulas but they were way too fast for them to catch. We picked up some meal works at a local pet store and these guys love them. We feed each of them a meal work every day, or every other day. Just now there were 3 on the rock and one of the turtles ate all 3. I was concerned that they wouldn't eat anything else but as I've read they tend to be that way when young. We will gradually start adding veggies in and see if they'll at least pick at it.

These guys tend to do nothing but eat and then burrow. Once burrowed they stay put until we get them out to eat. The appear to like to burrow on the cooler side of the container where it is about 65-70 degrees. Sometimes they only burrow half way so they can still look around. I've never seen them just hang out under the light or do anything other than burrow. Even when we set them in the water they hang out for a few minutes, walk around playing in it, then get out and burrow.

Does anyone have any advice, comments, criticism? Anything we should watch for? Other wiggly food sources to try? Links to order?

Thanks in advance.

 

[cmacusa3]

I raise my 3 toed hatchlings on Roaches, just squeeze their head a little, they will still move, my babies attack them.
Hatchlings take a while to eat fruits and veggies so be patient.

Compact fluorescent lights have been know to burn babies eyes so just be aware.
Those stick on gauges don't really work well for humidity and temp. I would suggest getting a few digital ones from lowes or Home Depot. Keep those babies warm and the substrate damp, babies dry out really easy and get dehydrated

The last thing I would suggest is closing up the enclosure. Look at the care sheets and enclosures on the box turtle section and you will get plenty of good info there.

 

[cmacusa3]

The CHE on thermostat is a great idea too.

 

[Twisted]

I raise my 3 toed hatchlings on Roaches, just squeeze their head a little, they will still move, my babies attack them.
Hatchlings take a while to eat fruits and veggies so be patient.

Compact fluorescent lights have been know to burn babies eyes so just be aware.
Those stick on gauges don't really work well for humidity and temp. I would suggest getting a few digital ones from lowes or Home Depot. Keep those babies warm and the substrate damp, babies dry out really easy and get dehydrated

The last thing I would suggest is closing up the enclosure. Look at the care sheets and enclosures on the box turtle section and you will get plenty of good info there.

Good info on the CFL. My plan is to build a shelf of sorts right above them so the light is shining straight down. I don't know if that will change much but will make it less directly in their eyes.

Part of the reason I run two gauges is to compare them and they stay consistent. I know they are cheap and not always trusted but the one stuck to the side is one I've had for several years. I used it in my tarantula area and it was always accurate. I have a fairly quality unit in my cigar humidor that I've compared it with and again, for cheap stick ons they have been real consistent.

What do you mean by "CHE" on thermostat? I'm lost on that one.

 

[cmacusa3]

Ceramic heat emitter on thermostat. I'm not a fan of the under heat mats, works for some people, I just don't like them.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Hello, and a very warm welcome to Tortoise forum to you and your delightful babies.
Heat mats can be burrowed into, unless you put them under a liner or under the enclosure.
Heating from beneath is not natural for a tortoise, I believe the heat source should be from above.
Heat mats also dry out the substrate and make keeping your humidity up harder.
I also would recommend a CHE.

 

[Yvonne G]

CHE = Ceramic Heat Emitter -

 

[BrianWI]

I wouldn't worry about the CFL. Millions in use safely everyday. I do recommend using the 26w versions as they are more effective. They will also get D3 from eating insects. Also have shady areas, lots of hiding spots. It is normal to have to dig them up to feed, but that won't last too long. I would bump up the cool side though, 65 is a bit low, try staying in the 75-85 for these little guys. Nothing over 90 even for basking. Try to get the humidity up as well.

I offer babies live food on some greens. Even really young. Nope, they likely won't eat them now, but they seem to start sooner that way. I like leaf worms, wax worms and roaches.

 

[ColleenT]

mealworms are not good for boxies. they have a different phosphorus to calcium ratio that makes them bad for the turtles. try small earthworms, even if you have to cut them up. keep serving veggies, eventually they will try them. you don't want to let the turtle train you. they need a balanced diet, so even if they don't eat it right away, keep trying.

 

[BrianWI]

Many insects have a poor ratio, but I wouldn't say that they are "bad for turtles". Crickets, mealworms, beetles, etc., all have non-ideal ratios. Thats why people started powdering them with calcium. But that balance is more important long term, so feed mealworms along with other insects and perhaps gutload or powder them.

On the bright side, earthworms have a much better ratio.

 

[Yvonne G]

I think (but I'm not sure) that the reason you're not supposed to feed a whole lot of meal worms is because of their hard exoskeleton. It's not digestible.

 

[BrianWI]

While a vegetarian tortoise would lack the digestive enzyme chitinase, a carnivorous/omnivorous box turtle should have no issues.

 

[EP429]

A lot of what I've been reading suggests room-temp (70-80) very soggy and UV optional for the first year. More overhead cover would benefit them also, my two relaxed a LOT with a good leafy fake plant in the mix.

 

[cmacusa3]

A lot of what I've been reading suggests room-temp (70-80) very soggy and UV optional for the first year. More overhead cover would benefit them also, my two relaxed a LOT with a good leafy fake plant in the mix.

I agree with this but I keep mine right around 80 and yes I keep mine soggy but also give a dry area. They spend most of the time buried unless they come out to eat.

 

[ColleenT]

here is a link from Sandy Barnett who works with boxies. She has put a lot of research into the diets of box turtles.

http://www.boxturtlefacts.org/Feeding_North_American_Box_Turtles.pdf

 

[Yvonne G]

here is a link from Sandy Barnett who works with boxies. She has put a lot of research into the diets of box turtles.

http://www.boxturtlefacts.org/Feeding_North_American_Box_Turtles.pdf

I LOVE this care sheet! Thank you so much for the link. Does anyone know how to save a PDF file to the computer? I don't see the 'save' button anywhere and it doesn't allow you to copy/paste.

 

[Yvonne G]

...never mind. I just right clicked and the "save as..." button came up.

 

[BrianWI]

here is a link from Sandy Barnett who works with boxies. She has put a lot of research into the diets of box turtles.

http://www.boxturtlefacts.org/Feeding_North_American_Box_Turtles.pdf

Pretty good, but a few small issues in it. However, to reiterate, mealworms are ok, perhaps powder with calcium, but as with all things, variety is key.

 

[PJay]

Welcome to the forum Twisted! Good work on doing all your research to ensure your new babies thrive. I agree with Craig about the under tank heaters, its not really the natural way a box turtle would receive heat (from below rather than from above) but its not a deal breaker, they just need to be kept moist and warm with at least a small thermogradient so they can move to warmer or cooler areas as their digestive processes dictate. Personally, I don't like the clamp on dome lights though, I tried them but they stay in the closet now. They shine light across the entire container and I worry about them slipping off and burning the floor or breaking the bulb. I bought an adjustable light stand and raise/lower the light as necessary. I keep them at around 82 on the warm side and 74 on the cool side.

You can feed baby box turtles meal worms but also give them lots a variety like earthworms, grubs (my turtles will crawl over top of earthworms to reach a grub), slugs and pill bugs (family Armadillidiidae). There are web pages devoted to teaching how to raise pill bugs in containers so you have a continual supply and baby box turtles love them. Crunch! I keep wooden boards, pieces of cardboard, etc. lying on the ground in the backyard and harvest whatever bugs I can catch that decide to make a home under them. Some of those critters are fast! Eventually the turtles will venture into testing fruits and berries. Cantaloupe, mango, blackberries, strawberries and blueberries are favorites. The key is variety, try lots of stuff and one day they will surprise you and eat some of it.

Don't worry about burrowing. Think of how a baby box turtle begins its life: they are prey to a host of other animals and are defenseless as their shell has not hardened yet, so especially in the first year or two, they hide in leaves, rotten logs and clumps of grass eating whatever bugs that happen by. They may not even have much access to UVB as they are hiding so much. So if your turtles burrow in most of the time it is natural and to be expected. Did I mention to keep them moist? Not standing in water, but moist. Closing up the enclosure, as Craig also mentioned, will help with this.

Your setup should work for a while but they will eventually outgrow it and the fun of designing another one begins.