Need the professionals' eyes

KarenSoCal

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This is my just-turning-3 yr old Burmese Star, Sulafat. I've had him (yes, he is a boy! o_O) almost 10 months.

I'm really trying to stop the pyramiding that he has. It's pretty minor, especially considering his species, but I certainly want to curtail any more.

The problem is that I'm not good at evaluating shells. I need some of you that are good at it to tell me if I am succeeding. I just can't tell.

20210410_183409.jpg 20210410_182551.jpg 20210410_183330.jpg
 

wellington

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The debate with stars and pyramiding is likely ongoing. However, them being naturally pyramided is winning. I can't say I ever seen a smooth one.
That said I'm not real sure what you are asking and/or comparing?
The two side view pics pyramiding look the same to me. One not worse or better then the other.
Beautiful little one.
 

NorCal tortoise guy

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This is my just-turning-3 yr old Burmese Star, Sulafat. I've had him (yes, he is a boy! o_O) almost 10 months.

I'm really trying to stop the pyramiding that he has. It's pretty minor, especially considering his species, but I certainly want to curtail any more.

The problem is that I'm not good at evaluating shells. I need some of you that are good at it to tell me if I am succeeding. I just can't tell.

View attachment 322932 View attachment 322933 View attachment 322934
I am not probably the kind of expert you are looking for but from what I see I think the pyramiding is continuing though maybe not as severely.
 

NorCal tortoise guy

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The debate with stars and pyramiding is likely ongoing. However, them being naturally pyramided is winning. I can't say I ever seen a smooth one.
That said I'm not real sure what you are asking and/or comparing?
The two side view pics pyramiding look the same to me. One not worse or better then the other.
Beautiful little one.
B50625DA-403C-4200-BF82-4FB70FC5860D.jpeg 5B1435E9-0611-4F1E-A6C9-7CC3DEF6ABBB.jpeg 45801440-20D0-4006-A077-518B69F37FCD.jpeg 615F3CAA-299F-478B-AB15-608EEA2D28A2.jpeg
Smooth stars can happen. These are Indians not burms but I’ve managed to raise them smooth
7F016356-B92B-421F-BCB3-204D51636908.jpeg
My burms are not very big yet but this one is over 100 grams and still smooth

(Karen I apologize if I am highjacking)
 

Tom

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This is my just-turning-3 yr old Burmese Star, Sulafat. I've had him (yes, he is a boy! o_O) almost 10 months.

I'm really trying to stop the pyramiding that he has. It's pretty minor, especially considering his species, but I certainly want to curtail any more.

The problem is that I'm not good at evaluating shells. I need some of you that are good at it to tell me if I am succeeding. I just can't tell.

View attachment 322932 View attachment 322933 View attachment 322934
Once these guys start, they don't seem to stop. It all looks the same. I don't see any change in the angle from when you first got him to now.
 

KarenSoCal

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The debate with stars and pyramiding is likely ongoing. However, them being naturally pyramided is winning. I can't say I ever seen a smooth one.
That said I'm not real sure what you are asking and/or comparing?
The two side view pics pyramiding look the same to me. One not worse or better then the other.
Beautiful little one.
These pics were all taken today, so there won't be any difference between them.

Often someone will comment on a pic that "the new growth is coming in smooth". I have difficulty seeing that until it's been smooth for a long time.

I'm wondering if Sulafat is now starting smooth growth, or if I need to do even more to make that happen.
 

KarenSoCal

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KarenSoCal

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I am not probably the kind of expert you are looking for but from what I see I think the pyramiding is continuing though maybe not as severely.
Once these guys start, they don't seem to stop. It all looks the same. I don't see any change in the angle from when you first got him to now.
Well, you guys certainly aren't giving me the answer I wanted!

I guess I'll have to get mad and argue with you, then leave the forum in a huff, slamming the door on my way out! 😆 :)😂🤣😘😘
 

Tom

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Well, you guys certainly aren't giving me the answer I wanted!

I guess I'll have to get mad and argue with you, then leave the forum in a huff, slamming the door on my way out! 😆 :)😂🤣😘😘
Just keep asking the same question in five threads. Eventually someone will tell you what you want to hear! :D
 

Markw84

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Karen,

Yes, I see flatter growth coming in now. I would call your tortoise "moderately" pyramided when you got it. Your care is making a difference. I do not believe you will be able to get it to grow totally smooth at this point however. You can get somewhat smoother growth, but once the bones have ossified and thickened with 18 mos to 2 years of growth, the patter the bone has taken is hard to change.

I have found with Burmese Stars, once they pass 2 years, the pyramiding they have started has progressed to the point where the underlying bone has tipped to the angle of the pyramiding and the new growth will continue on that plane. Especially along the vertebrals, where there are more bones than scutes - so the pyramiding can set the angle of an entire vertebral bone.

When I got my founder stock for my group, they were already very pyramided as they were kept dry at the Behler Center. They also believed in "slow growing" them and they were about 5 years old and only 400g - 500g.

Here's one 2 mos after I got her. She had already put on over 250g and you can see some of the new growth is coming in a bit smoother, but not what I hoped.

IMG_3133.JPG

IF you look between the 1st and 2nd vertebral the new growth is much flatter. Between the 2nd and 3rd and the 3rd and 4th - it is flatter but less so. The placement of those bones are such that entire bones had been tipped. The seams between costals and marginals all flattened out nicely as that area is all under the same bone (modified ribs) and new growth along that "rib" can indeed now come in flat.

Here's one of the males after 3 months at my place. You can see definite flattening of the plane with all new growth after 3 months.

IMG_3309.JPG

Here's a view after 4 months of one of the females but showing the seams between costals where it is much easier to flatten new growth;


IMG_3417.JPG

Here's the same female as the first picture after 1 year in my care. You can see the flattening I saw at 2 months did not overcome the overall plane the underlying bone had already been altered to. If you look closely, you can see a "step" where that first 2 months was a bit flatter, but the overall new growth from that point on was still pyramided. Not as steep a plane as the original pyramiding, but still pyramiding.
IMG_5115.JPG


For comparison, here's one of the babies from that female that I hatched, started properly and raised in a closed chamber. The same size as the female in the first picture I got from Behler, but 16 months old and smooth.


IMG_1145.JPG
 

KarenSoCal

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Karen,

Yes, I see flatter growth coming in now. I would call your tortoise "moderately" pyramided when you got it. Your care is making a difference. I do not believe you will be able to get it to grow totally smooth at this point however. You can get somewhat smoother growth, but once the bones have ossified and thickened with 18 mos to 2 years of growth, the patter the bone has taken is hard to change.

I have found with Burmese Stars, once they pass 2 years, the pyramiding they have started has progressed to the point where the underlying bone has tipped to the angle of the pyramiding and the new growth will continue on that plane. Especially along the vertebrals, where there are more bones than scutes - so the pyramiding can set the angle of an entire vertebral bone.

When I got my founder stock for my group, they were already very pyramided as they were kept dry at the Behler Center. They also believed in "slow growing" them and they were about 5 years old and only 400g - 500g.

Here's one 2 mos after I got her. She had already put on over 250g and you can see some of the new growth is coming in a bit smoother, but not what I hoped.

View attachment 322992

IF you look between the 1st and 2nd vertebral the new growth is much flatter. Between the 2nd and 3rd and the 3rd and 4th - it is flatter but less so. The placement of those bones are such that entire bones had been tipped. The seams between costals and marginals all flattened out nicely as that area is all under the same bone (modified ribs) and new growth along that "rib" can indeed now come in flat.

Here's one of the males after 3 months at my place. You can see definite flattening of the plane with all new growth after 3 months.

View attachment 322993

Here's a view after 4 months of one of the females but showing the seams between costals where it is much easier to flatten new growth;


View attachment 322994

Here's the same female as the first picture after 1 year in my care. You can see the flattening I saw at 2 months did not overcome the overall plane the underlying bone had already been altered to. If you look closely, you can see a "step" where that first 2 months was a bit flatter, but the overall new growth from that point on was still pyramided. Not as steep a plane as the original pyramiding, but still pyramiding.
View attachment 322995


For comparison, here's one of the babies from that female that I hatched, started properly and raised in a closed chamber. The same size as the female in the first picture I got from Behler, but 16 months old and smooth.


View attachment 322996
Mark, thank you so much! The detailed explanation along with pictures is precisely what I needed. You have really provided a good lesson, and it is appreciated!

I must say, rather than "slow growing, I think I'd call that method starvation! Sulafat is just turning 3, and he weighs 541 gms!

Besides, you told me what I wanted to hear! I guess I can stay on the forum now! 😆 😂🤣😂🤣
 

KarenSoCal

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I don't see the new growth coming in any smoother.
OK, you get a free pass today, so you will not be the cause of me having a hissy fit and writing 7 threads complaining about you and mods in general. :):p:D😅😂🤣
You get this in honor of Bondo, James Bondo. 🥺😢
 

KarenSoCal

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He looks hydrated and shell looks so shiny! Is it just the hydration, or do you put any oil on it?
He is well hydrated...he's starting to complain that I'm trying to turn him into a sea critter! 🦑🦐🦞🦀🐡🐬

And the shine, yes, he gets lovingly oiled every Saturday night. The rest of the week, unless he's just stepped from the soak or been spritzed, he's covered with substrate dust.:)
 

harrythetortoise

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He is well hydrated...he's starting to complain that I'm trying to turn him into a sea critter! 🦑🦐🦞🦀🐡🐬

And the shine, yes, he gets lovingly oiled every Saturday night. The rest of the week, unless he's just stepped from the soak or been spritzed, he's covered with substrate dust.:)
Hahahaha I am sure he would look adorable either way. But the oil idea is great! I think I will start doing that too😉
 

KarenSoCal

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Hahahaha I am sure he would look adorable either way. But the oil idea is great! I think I will start doing that too😉
I use cold pressed extra virgin coconut oil once per week. I put it on, wait about 10-15 min, and wipe him with a terry towel.
He likes the wiping part best! :)
 
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