My shell baby died.....

[MareBear44]

Tula, my Iberian Greek Tortoise, passed away this morning. She had lost some weight, was not eating, digging in, and acting as if she were ready to hibernate(which, in this species. is not typical. In the beginning, we thought she was just getting adjusted to her new surroundings. As time went on, we thought maybe she was sick or she had worms. She saw the vet, who said she was dehydrated and underweight. Her clutch-mate, Atlas, was gaining and eating and acting normal. Both were dewormed as a precaution(using Paracur orally) I did not want to do this myself for fear of overdosage. My husband found her this morning dead. Please keep our kids in your thoughts. We only have had them for 3 weeks and we are doing all of the right things(UVB lamp, Heat lamp, water, fresh foods, calcium, soaking, humidity checks, etc.) Our kids are so sad. Tula was born on August 4, 2018 and died September 27th, 2018. She was not even 2 months old. Thank you for letting me vent.

 

[wellington]

So very sorry. Sometimes they are just not hatched and cared for properly before we get them. It's sometimes hard to undue what has been done, even when we do everything right. Again, very sorry.

 

[Tom]

Did you have them living together in the same enclosure?

 

[Yvonne G]

It might have something to do with the fact there were two of them in the same enclosure. . . but it usually takes a bit longer than 2 months for you to see adverse effects of living in pairs. I'd guess it was a "failure to thrive"issue.

 

[no one]

I am sorry for your loss.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Sad to hear :-(

 

[TammyJ]

Did you have them living together in the same enclosure?

Tom, I think you asked this question at this point because of the possibility of a communicable disease? Spreading to the other one?

 

[TammyJ]

Marebear44, I am very sorry this happened, hope the other one will be OK.

 

[TammyJ]

Tom, I think you asked this question at this point because of the possibility of a communicable disease? Spreading to the other one?

Tammy, if they were clutch mates, the other one would most likely have the same disease, right? So it must be a "failure to thrive" issue of some individual kind. No fault of the owner.

 

[MareBear44]

Did you have them living together in the same enclosure?

Yes. They were vet checked. Tula was a little off from the beginning when we got her. She seemed to want to hibernate and not eat. They were in the same enclosure, but that is how they were kept from birth. Atlas was her clutchmate, born of the same parents. I called the breeder and he said no one has had a problem with any of the other from the clutch. Both tortoises were dewormed.

 

[MareBear44]

It might have something to do with the fact there were two of them in the same enclosure. . . but it usually takes a bit longer than 2 months for you to see adverse effects of living in pairs. I'd guess it was a "failure to thrive"issue.

The breeder told me that he had them living in the same enclosure and it wasn't a problem. They were only a month and half old. I think she was sick when I received her. She seemed a little off, but I thought she was just getting used to her new environment.

 

[Tom]

Tortoises should never be housed in pairs. One always loses.

 

[MareBear44]

Tortoises should never be housed in pairs. One always loses.

Thanks for the information. I appreciate it for future reference.

 

[Pearly]

Thanks for the information. I appreciate it for future reference.

I am so sorry for your loss and sincerely hope you don’t beat yourself up about this. It was NOT your fault. You didn’t have them long enough. There is no way of telling for sure why your little Tula died unless a necropsy is performed to look at every part of her little body in search of a cause. As for the issues with tort bullying, I agree, it us a very common thing in these little territorially motivated creatures but not all torts are territorially aggressive. I think this just varies from tort to tort. So many of novice keepers start with 2 baby torts, being misinformed and misguided by our desire to give our little new shelled friend a companion of their own kind. The fact that torts are solitary animals seems to be the best kept secret in exotic pet trade. For myself it wasn’t untilI had found this forum that I was made aware of all potential issues including physical danger for the weaker more vulnerable tort. I have kept my two together for over 3 yrs now and took my chances because of a size of their enclosures (one inside and their garden outside are big, with LOTS of overgrown vegetation where they can be all day walking around and may never see each other. That, and this has also been the time when I had to put my professional life on hold in order to care for a sick child, so I’ve been able to watch /observe them, watch them eat, give them daily bath, keep an eye on them interacting with each other. When they were tiny 2” babies they tended to huddle together a lot (not always but often) now at 11& 12” long and 7&8lbs respectively, they tend to each do their own thing and keep out of each other’s sight. And I am telling you all this to let you know that you have done what likely most of us did when we were first getting into tortkeeping. You just maby happened to have a little weaker baby tort, but like Yvonne has said, you didn’t have them ling enough to claim full responsibility for little Tula’s demise. Unfortunately so many little baby torts never make to their first birthday. In the wild those are usually the ones who fall prey to bigger animal’s hunger. One of my 2 (Tucker) would have probably ended up being food to some predator but fortunately for him, I had found thisForum pretty early on (like in the 1st week after buying them) and with countless hours of research and getting great advice from the awesome RF keepers on TFO, plus my OCD with “nurturing and nourishing” he made it past his first year and is a 7lb 11” carapace length - beast-eating machine now. He eats a lot more than his house sister Shellie does now. And she was always the bigger, the more outgoing one, bold and unafraid. Little Tucker was the shy one, I had constantly had to get him out of his hides and put him in front of his food, repeating this many times before he’d finally catch the rhythm of bitting off pieces of food and working on getting them down his little throat. For you my Friend, I wish that you don’t get discouraged and don’t give up. Just stick to this Forum, ask questions/share your thoughts and ideas. And keep trying. The better days are yet to come. Remember that with torts, things tend to be little on a slower side. They teach us a lot about being patient and WAITING, that’s for darn sure[emoji6][emoji217]

 

[MareBear44]

I am so sorry for your loss and sincerely hope you don’t beat yourself up about this. It was NOT your fault. You didn’t have them long enough. There is no way of telling for sure why your little Tula died unless a necropsy is performed to look at every part of her little body in search of a cause. As for the issues with tort bullying, I agree, it us a very common thing in these little territorially motivated creatures but not all torts are territorially aggressive. I think this just varies from tort to tort. So many of novice keepers start with 2 baby torts, being misinformed and misguided by our desire to give our little new shelled friend a companion of their own kind. The fact that torts are solitary animals seems to be the best kept secret in exotic pet trade. For myself it wasn’t untilI had found this forum that I was made aware of all potential issues including physical danger for the weaker more vulnerable tort. I have kept my two together for over 3 yrs now and took my chances because of a size of their enclosures (one inside and their garden outside are big, with LOTS of overgrown vegetation where they can be all day walking around and may never see each other. That, and this has also been the time when I had to put my professional life on hold in order to care for a sick child, so I’ve been able to watch /observe them, watch them eat, give them daily bath, keep an eye on them interacting with each other. When they were tiny 2” babies they tended to huddle together a lot (not always but often) now at 11& 12” long and 7&8lbs respectively, they tend to each do their own thing and keep out of each other’s sight. And I am telling you all this to let you know that you have done what likely most of us did when we were first getting into tortkeeping. You just maby happened to have a little weaker baby tort, but like Yvonne has said, you didn’t have them ling enough to claim full responsibility for little Tula’s demise. Unfortunately so many little baby torts never make to their first birthday. In the wild those are usually the ones who fall prey to bigger animal’s hunger. One of my 2 (Tucker) would have probably ended up being food to some predator but fortunately for him, I had found thisForum pretty early on (like in the 1st week after buying them) and with countless hours of research and getting great advice from the awesome RF keepers on TFO, plus my OCD with “nurturing and nourishing” he made it past his first year and is a 7lb 11” carapace length - beast-eating machine now. He eats a lot more than his house sister Shellie does now. And she was always the bigger, the more outgoing one, bold and unafraid. Little Tucker was the shy one, I had constantly had to get him out of his hides and put him in front of his food, repeating this many times before he’d finally catch the rhythm of bitting off pieces of food and working on getting them down his little throat. For you my Friend, I wish that you don’t get discouraged and don’t give up. Just stick to this Forum, ask questions/share your thoughts and ideas. And keep trying. The better days are yet to come. Remember that with torts, things tend to be little on a slower side. They teach us a lot about being patient and WAITING, that’s for darn sure[emoji6][emoji217]

Tula and Atlas are clutchmates and were always very good to each other. Atlas and Tula were sent to me at 1 month old. I loved them and their enclosure was so large(2.5 feet by nearly 5 feet) they were never really near each other. Tula made it to 7 weeks old. I don't believe it was anything we did. I am pretty sure that she was ill when we received her or maybe just the "runt" if there is such a thing in tortoises. She just never adjusted and seemed off. Thank you for all of your kind words. I am trying to keep a happy face, but my kids are heartbroken. They had her for 3 weeks and are loving on her clutchmate, Atlas, to show him extra love as they feel he may be missing her. I am so thankful for this forum and all of the support. It is a hard thing to lose a pet, no matter how long you had to love them. I will never give up on my easy-going, laid-back, life loving friends. Thanks again to everyone for their help.

 

[Gillian M]

Terribly sorry to have just heard about your loss.

 

[xphare]

I am sorry for your lose Its definitely not your fault. It is interesting how we on the forum understand the unnecessary risks of keeping babies together. I'm sure we are all familiar with Kamp Kenan and people ask him all the time if they should get 2 babies or get a 'friend' for the baby they already have. His response is since he wouldn't want to go through life alone then they should get another one. He also mentions only seeing one side of the animals behavior because its not around its own kind. I personally disagree but what do you guys think?

 

[TechnoCheese]

I am sorry for your lose Its definitely not your fault. It is interesting how we on the forum understand the unnecessary risks of keeping babies together. I'm sure we are all familiar with Kamp Kenan and people ask him all the time if they should get 2 babies or get a 'friend' for the baby they already have. His response is since he wouldn't want to go through life alone then they should get another one. He also mentions only seeing one side of the animals behavior because its not around its own kind. I personally disagree but what do you guys think?

Good example of why he should never be used for advice. He also recommends mixing species(we’re talking giant lizards being housed with tortoises like hermanns)and housing babies outside 24/7.

 

[xphare]

Yeah that's another good point I didn't even think of. I enjoy his channel and his field trips to other keepers facilities but sometimes I am just surprised at what he says or does and the amount of people who blindly follow.

 

[SweetGreekTorts]

I am sorry for your lose Its definitely not your fault. It is interesting how we on the forum understand the unnecessary risks of keeping babies together. I'm sure we are all familiar with Kamp Kenan and people ask him all the time if they should get 2 babies or get a 'friend' for the baby they already have. His response is since he wouldn't want to go through life alone then they should get another one. He also mentions only seeing one side of the animals behavior because its not around its own kind. I personally disagree but what do you guys think?

I personally agree with your disagreement. I have not watched much Kamp Kenan, but my friends who know I have tortoises will sometimes send a YouTube clip of his my way and I've always been disappointed with the care advice he gives. I am also in various tortoise groups on Facebook and there are some who are spreading his advice forward to new tortoise owners, and they will argue anybody who says different, just because it was Kenan who gave the advice and they believe it is truth. And they are fairly newish tortoise owners themselves. In my opinion the man is just an entertainer.

I'll stick with Team TFO!