My conclusion on the controversy of food plants

[biglove4bigtorts]

I just about threw my hands up and decided that tortoises, in the wild, eat only air. It seemed logical, after finding a list of edible plants only to find another list that condemns the plant as too high in oxalates, saponins, tannins, goitrogens, hallucinagens, or what ever else. I have decided that the problem is people...we forget, when reading these list some key points, they are as follows:

Plants do not want to be eaten, except perhaps thier fruit for seed dispersal. Everey plant has some defense agains being devoured in its entirety. It could be throns, mild toxins, distatseful sap, oxalate crystals, every plant has them to some degree.

Tortoises are confined to thier geographic ranges and have available only the plants that are available to them. In a desert area, all plants will have more substances in thier tissues to discourage nibbling, b/c there are fewer plants ad mosture loss is a great concern. The tortoises in that area have learned to cope with at least some of those plants defenses...they eat a spiny cactus or a spurge with milky sap and they are fine. A captive diet that includes weeds should be more varied than even a natural diet for most species, b/c we can cultivate plants from around the world, not just the few dozen they may have had access to.

Oxalates are not as dangerous as we might think. Hydration is a big key in helping pass them without ill effect and the crystals only bind the calcium in that food item, not everything fed in that feeding. It is wise not to base a diet soley on plants known for thier high oxalate contents, but by no meand am I going to stop feeding borage, b/c it was said on some list to be high in oxalates. Variety is key and since our beloved torts are herbivores, they have adapted to be able to handle some of the compounds and nutritional short falls of the plants they eat.

Sapponins, tannins, and the like are natural plant compounds...they are in EVERY plant there is on some level....we can't avoid them, so I don't even consider the two words when deciding the suitability of an edible plant.If the plant has a noxious, milky, irritateing, or gummy sap (think pine, milk weed, euphorbia), then I would not be feeding that plant, but otherwise, most plants are fair game.

As far as plants that are out right toxic. We generally draw on plants that have poisoned people or mammalian pets, so we project assumptions about what is toxic on plants in regards to tortoises. Our tortoises can probably eat plants that are toxic to mammals and visa versa. I think if a plant is known to be poisonus (think hemlock, foxglove, datura), then it is best to avoid it. For plants that are disputed, such as bindweed.....use only the parts of the plants that don't contain large amounts of sap and avoid the seeds. With that said, some plants are entirely toxic and best avoided altogether and I am one not to experiment with whether a deadly plant to people may be safe for my tortoises.


In conclusion, I am no longer referring to list...I m avoiding the heresay, misconceptions, and paranoia, and feeding a wide variety of nontoxic weeds, table greens, and ornamentals, and resting assured that my tortoises will continue to do what they have been doing...growing and being perfectly healthy, inspite of the fact that some lists I have come across have virtually shot down every food item I have to offer, leaving only air as safe food item.

End of Rant....lol

 

[Tracy Gould]

Hi I fell the same i find it all so confusing one lists tells u it safe then u see another that says its toxic. I am still trying to get my head around knowing weeds names without all the whats in them business too so i feed her and try to keep it varied but i only feed the weeds i have seen on the ok list and know i am getting the right weed, I have a little tort that loves dandilion clover and Bindweed but then i read bindweed is bad but it also on the ok list, there seem to be alot of conflicting info out there.

 

[Tom]

You make some good points. I haven't found it so difficult to feed from the list of things that are known to be safe.

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

Yeah,
I was fine until I followed a link that was posted here and everything that I had been feeding had some warning associated with it and I know from feeding other herbivores/omnivores, that my tortoises were getting an excellent, varied diet, and thier health speaks for that.

I have fed bindweed leaves before in small amount and every 4 or 5 batches of food I make. Id did not harm, but with that plant, I made the mistake of following safe food lists and went against my own knowledge. I knew that the bindweed was in the toxic morning glory family and avoided it, before I saw it on several safe lists, but I have since gone back to following my gut and it tells me it is not worth the risk to feed it. I have enough safe flowers and plants, that its omission doesn't limit me, but if I was having trouble with finding enough variety, I might offer the leaves only in moderation and the middle aged ones have less sap than the fresh, new growth, so less chance of any harm.

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

You make some good points. I haven't found it so difficult to feed from the list of things that are known to be safe.

And I felt the same way. Then I happened upon this list designated by a tortoise website that states that white mulberry leaves are to be fed only in moderation, birdfoot trefoil is to be avoided, borage is to be avoided, and so on.....I wonder what the heck they do feed thier tortoises that aren't posing ANY risk...of course they neglected to include a recomended list of plants...you have to click on every plant listing and see what they have to say about it. Lists are good references for people with little experience with common plants and basic nutritional make-up of some of them, out side of that, it is far too general a reference. Something might be ''safe'', but be very low in nutrient value, whereas something else might have goitrogens, but have a very good calcium to phosphorus ratio....feeding a variety of plants that are known to be nontoxic and not trying to strive for a diet of all ''perfect'' plants makes the most sense IMO. Studies have shown in many species of herbivores reptiles that intake is seasonal and varies, but many herps only regularly consume a handful of plants that they can reach and are within thier habitat. Those specialist feeders haen't chosen a ''perfect'' plant to eat...thier bodies are adjusted to the make-up of that plant species and get what they need from it....there are no ''perfect'' plants...only ones to include in a varied diet and ones not to.

 

[Tracy Gould]

well i just checked out a tort food page and it says Clover is high in protein and Dandilion can dehydrate them Shelby's loves dandilion clover and bindweed i am starting to pull my hair out now as i give these every other day and add Buddliea Honeysuckle,or rose petal flowers to it i then feed mixed lettuce the other days and add vts to that i really thought i was giving a good variety of food from the few thngs i am able to find and identify but i am worrying now.

 

[travisgn]

Great thread.

I would just add that my thoughts have always been that if something were definitively harmful, even in small amounts, there would likely be a consensus on it. Since there seems to be very little consensus, it seems likely that some of these "harmful" plants are being mislabeled as culprits when another variable might actually be to blame for a particular situation/illness (possibly the culprit is simply lack of variety, for instance). That is to say, there is no evidence of causation, though there might be a weak correlation between some of the plants and either illness or an animal just not thriving as it should. When that correlation starts to become stronger, keepers everywhere take notice, and I would expect a consensus to be reached at that point.

I also think that having multiple torts goes a long way toward setting one's mind at ease. I only have two, but I always feed them identical meals. When one seems to be a little "off" and I am keeping an eye on it more closely, I am also looking closely at the other one to see if there is anything going on there, too. If only one is giving me cause for concern, I start looking for what is different between the two. Since food is never different, I can always rule that out. (In theory it might still be the food, but it would be extremely unlikely, I think.) The point is, if you only have one tort, you can never rule out the diet as the culprit in a particular situation, and you may become overly paranoid about what you are feeding.

 

[Crazy1]

biglove4bigtorts IMHO you make some good points. What you don't or didn't put in this is the type or size of the tort. What a large tort can consume and not have any ill effects may not be so with a small tort, eating say the same amount. Just an FYI I feel your "rant" was a darn good one. People I feel really get hung up on how much what is in each plant. and I feel with a good variety the torts will often work that out for you. I know my older torts leave some things some times and others at other times. Yet if given their "favorite" will eat it regardless of what they left behind so it's not a matter of not wanting to eat or being full but what their bodies need. Now hatchlings are a bit different and often somewhat tricky, and that's my 2 cents worth.

 

[Len B]

My thoughts are, We take our tortoise's out of their natural environment but they still have their natural instincts which they have survived for a long time using. Every tortoise species have different requirements and we try to give them what they need. I have observed my tortoise's use the sense of smell and or taste to test a plant new to them,Some of the plants mine have access to but do not eat are Iris, (both bearded and japanese), ajuga, pachysanda, mayapple, ferns,(in the spring they will eat the new fern growth just as it breaks the surface,but not the mature leaves) I have potted trees, walnut,pecan, azalea, red bud, maple, oak, etc that they could eat but they don't, They were eating the bark off the ginkgo trees that are planted in the ground which I didn't feel would harm the tortoise's, but I put .010 aluminum around the base to protect the trees. I know some people have had problems with their tortoise's eating strange things but I have not seen it with mine,---They smell it, they may bite it to taste it once and never show interest in it again ---

 

[Madkins007]

There is a list of plants that are known to be risky when eaten by reptiles, but it is a very short list, and includes things like oak, some lilies, some ivys, etc. There are some that are known dangerous to birds and suspected to be risky for torts. The point is that it is a SHORT list.

As for other common plants with confusing info- there are a lot of reasons for the confusion. Almost every plant has good and bad- for every action, there is an opposite reaction. Did you know, for example, that calcium blocks iron absorption?

So... just for kicks... let's look at what few foods we REALLY should not use that we can generally buy in the store.

DO NOT EVER USE THESE FRUITS OR VEGETABLES (assuming they are sold for human consumption, are used in rotation, and are appropriate for your species):
- ???

Hmmm- while there are things I know my Red-foots will not like (mustard greens, potatoes, hot peppers), and things that should not be used much (Lambsquarters), and things that will not really benefit it (grains, seeds, nuts), I really cannot think of anything that I can buy to eat for me that will really hurt my guys... when used in moderation, etc.

I mean- come on! If oxalates, goiterinogens, etc. were really a big deal, wouldn't human doctors spend more time warning us about using them for kids?????? I understand that the tortoise gets less variety and more bad stuff per pound than a human would get, but tortoises are also masters at surviving on almost nothing.


I still support the idea that we can divide our options into great, good, OK, and not so hot, but I am on-board with the idea that there is little in most foods that is really a big concern for our guys.