Milton, the vet, an enema, and getting him to produce a stool sample

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Hi there. I have had two female Russians for a long time. I am no beginner. I’d say I’m pretty intermediate pro advanced in terms of keeping them and I definitely know the basics. both my girls were rescues from bad environments.

Two weeks ago today I got Milton, a juvenile male, from a pet store. I know: say what you will about the petstore/pet trade. Someone already ripped me a new one on the tortoise keepers Facebook page. I get it.

he has healthy urates/urine, healthy eyes and respiratory system, and is very energetic. He can’t produce a bowel movement. He eats (though pretty minimally). He is totally separate from my girls.

vet checked him out and confirmed he is underweight. We did a reptile enema. Nothing. She says there’s probably nothing inside him (besides probably worms) fand doubts there’s a blockage, and def not a bladder blockage/stone as he pees normally and produces very watery urates. I have an appointment in two weeks and if he hasn’t gone, we will try the enema again. If he does go, I can bring his poop whenever. (Love my vet btw).I had been feeding dandelion and wild plantain. She says try a super wide variety of food at once. Soak every day for 30 minutes (which I’ve been doing). I bought unflavored PediaLyte and he will soak in that as well. He’s a trooper. Acting totally normal. He DOES eat but he eats for five minutes, gets bored, and then leaves the rest. I bought carrots, kale, turnip greens, endive, carrot juice and pedialyte for soaking. All we need is ONE stool sample, then we can see what parasites he has and get him healthier and heavier. I know kale and carrots (maybe endive?) are minimal feeds but he just needs to get food in him.

this is all horrendous timing. I am veeeeery broke because unemployment decided to drop me for reasons I don’t understand as I was laid off due to COVID. I’m going to California Wednesday to see my boyfriend, which I am excited for but I’m worried about Milton. I know my roommate will take good care of him and is good w/ animals, but she’s not me. I told her she’d just have to feed them a few weeks ago and nothing else as I won’t be gone long but Milton is going to need special care. And I’m having major familial issues (narcissist... sperm donor? That’s what I’ll call him) and I’m stressed beyond belief.

if anyone has intestinal parasite or constipation or weight gain advice I am open to it all. He is 271 grams. According to the McIntyre ratio he should weigh over an ounce more!
 

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KarenSoCal

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I'm sorry about your personal troubles. And now worrying about Milton. Sometimes life just piles on us all at once.

Endive is an excellent food! When you must go to the grocery store to feed him, endive, escarole, and radicchio would be considered staples, and all those other greens amendments to be mixed in.

Can you get cactus pads in IL? In a Mexican market maybe? They are called nopales, and have a slight laxative effent. If you can't get them, try some cucumber. Wet foods like those help encourage movement.

When you soak him, soak for at least 30 minutes, and don't let the water cool off. You want it to stay between 90° and 95°F. Also, if he gets antsy and tries to climb out of the soak, just let him work at that. It's excellent exercise, and frequently does the trick.

Finally, we have a member who just went through this with her tortoise. I'll tag her...maybe she can help you.

@maggie3fan
 

Maro2Bear

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Greetings. Hope everything “works out”. Regarding your last paragraph there....”According to the McIntyre ratio he should weigh over an ounce more!”

I want to say that most ppl really don’t pay too much attention to the McIntyre “ratio” of weights, let alone the fact your guy should weigh an ounce more. By my calcs, 271 grams = 9.5 ounces.

Id worry about getting good soaks in & moist food like Karen suggested. Once you get the digestion/intestinal tract moving along, should be fine. ????
 
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I'm sorry about your personal troubles. And now worrying about Milton. Sometimes life just piles on us all at once.

Endive is an excellent food! When you must go to the grocery store to feed him, endive, escarole, and radicchio would be considered staples, and all those other greens amendments to be mixed in.

Can you get cactus pads in IL? In a Mexican market maybe? They are called nopales, and have a slight laxative effent. If you can't get them, try some cucumber. Wet foods like those help encourage movement.

When you soak him, soak for at least 30 minutes, and don't let the water cool off. You want it to stay between 90° and 95°F. Also, if he gets antsy and tries to climb out of the soak, just let him work at that. It's excellent exercise, and frequently does the trick.

Finally, we have a member who just went through this with her tortoise. I'll tag her...maybe she can help you.

@maggie3fan
working on getting nopales and aloe. They have them at a Mexican store 25 mins away, thanks!
 

wellington

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He is TINY, his baby enclosure is 2’ by 4’. Will take your advice for an adult!
He may be tiny but he doesnt look to be a baby. Pet stores usually only sell WC adults and they are usually already around 10 years old. The small size is likely to poor care and too small of an enclosure before you got him.
I rescued a leopard that was kept in a small tank. He was very small for his age. Once properly housed ahs fed, he started to grow and caught up and surpassed the leopard I already had of the same age.
 
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He may be tiny but he doesnt look to be a baby. Pet stores usually only sell WC adults and they are usually already around 10 years old. The small size is likely to poor care and too small of an enclosure before you got him.
I rescued a leopard that was kept in a small tank. He was very small for his age. Once properly housed ahs fed, he started to grow and caught up and surpassed the leopard I already had of the same age.
I’m curious how small space stunts a tort. I used to be advanced in the fishkeeping hobby. I know water quality stunts a fish as they live and breathe in their own waste. I’m NOT saying you’re wrong, I’m curious. I have a female Russian who’s am absolute planet. 8” and almost 4 lbs. she was kept in a forty gallon tank for over a decade. It is possible she came that big but I know she is not stunted. It’s anecdotal evidence so of course I don’t know for sure. I am building him a larger enclosure!

also Milton was almost certainly wild caught. I doubt it took more than a few months between catching him, sorting, and putting him up for sale.At least this is how I’m told it works. I don’t think he was at the store longer Than a month. The employee said they turn them over quickly. Based on that he is probably 5-8 years old. I could be wrong.
 

Lokkje

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Definitely try the nopales. Try cutting strips then splitting the strips to expose the ‘meat’ of the cactus. Some tortoises won’t bother to bite through the cactus but Will eat the pulp. I definitely get looser stools for my tortoises when they’re eating a lot of cactus pads. And welcome to the forum. I’m sure you’re going to do fine with him and he is a little cutie.
 

wellington

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I’m curious how small space stunts a tort. I used to be advanced in the fishkeeping hobby. I know water quality stunts a fish as they live and breathe in their own waste. I’m NOT saying you’re wrong, I’m curious. I have a female Russian who’s am absolute planet. 8” and almost 4 lbs. she was kept in a forty gallon tank for over a decade. It is possible she came that big but I know she is not stunted. It’s anecdotal evidence so of course I don’t know for sure. I am building him a larger enclosure!

also Milton was almost certainly wild caught. I doubt it took more than a few months between catching him, sorting, and putting him up for sale.At least this is how I’m told it works. I don’t think he was at the store longer Than a month. The employee said they turn them over quickly. Based on that he is probably 5-8 years old. I could be wrong.
I wouldnt say the enclosure alone would stunt their growth, it's how they are cared for and what they don't get when kept in a too small enclosure. Proper diet and exercise. Not having proper exercise will hinder their diet whether a poor diet or not. Not only was my leopard too small for his age, he couldn't walk. All due to lack of room too properly exercise, regulate temps and properly be able to eat and grow.

No, fish do not grow only to the size tank they are in. They keep growing but at a slower pace. A too small tank does equal poor water quality which equals among other things poor/slow growth.
My leopard was
 

Yvonne G

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If you got Milton from a pet store, he's more than likely almost a mature tortoise. Since you've had your two females for "a long time," I'm sure you know Russians are a small species, and normal size for males is about 5" SCL.

There are a few things you can do to help with this tortoise's constipation - feed him wet foods like cucumber, cactus, maybe even watermelon. Soak him for a LONG time, maybe even an hour or more. Scrambling around in the water, trying to get out helps release the poop. Spread mineral oil on a leaf of romaine and roll it up like a cigar then hand feed it to him. Squirt mineral oil into the cloaca. Any of these things will help with constipation.

Just so you know, walking is one way tortoises have of keeping gut motility healthy. They need a lot of room for walking in order to keep the digestive tract moving.
 
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I wouldnt say the enclosure alone would stunt their growth, it's how they are cared for and what they don't get when kept in a too small enclosure. Proper diet and exercise. Not having proper exercise will hinder their diet whether a poor diet or not. Not only was my leopard too small for his age, he couldn't walk. All due to lack of room too properly exercise, regulate temps and properly be able to eat and grow.

No, fish do not grow only to the size tank they are in. They keep growing but at a slower pace. A too small tank does equal poor water quality which equals among other things poor/slow growth.
My leopard was
The fish thing isn’t literally a tank size thing, but I did mean fish are severely stunted from the size (which 99% of the time leads to poor water quality for many reasons including “the fish produces too much waste for the water volume and so is swimming in its own waste.)

i definitely plan on a bigger enclosure for Milt and even my girls. Next few months I’m living with a roommate who wants me to keep Milton in my room because they tattoo in the living room and don’t want a tortoise there despite them having a large dog... it’s a weird situation. I want to eventually get a massive bookcase and maybe convert it to a tort enclosure for him. For now he gets a lot of outdoors time.
 
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Also update: Milton has gained grams, I won’t know for sure til we are at the vet again. I thought my scale was precise (it’s a great scale used for soap making) but I can’t be sure. He was 271 at the vet. Now he is 300 (according to my scal) I am feeding 2-3 small portions a day as it seems that’s the way he prefers to eat, and he really needed to put on weight. He’s pooped, peed and made urates that look healthy (watery and not too thick and chalky).
 
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If you got Milton from a pet store, he's more than likely almost a mature tortoise. Since you've had your two females for "a long time," I'm sure you know Russians are a small species, and normal size for males is about 5" SCL.

There are a few things you can do to help with this tortoise's constipation - feed him wet foods like cucumber, cactus, maybe even watermelon. Soak him for a LONG time, maybe even an hour or more. Scrambling around in the water, trying to get out helps release the poop. Spread mineral oil on a leaf of romaine and roll it up like a cigar then hand feed it to him. Squirt mineral oil into the cloaca. Any of these things will help with constipation.

Just so you know, walking is one way tortoises have of keeping gut motility healthy. They need a lot of room for walking in order to keep the digestive tract moving.
I guess with his age nobody can be sure... I assumed he was a teen/early adult because of his size but you are 100% right, I’m just super used to having very large females! How big would a 5-10 year old male be btw?

I take him outside quite a lot for exercise. I’ve definitely noticed that they are way more regular with exercise, just like people ;)
 

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