Marshalls health problems.

[Marshall77]

I thought I was just dealing with some pyramiding which is not good but I've seen worse and a overgrown under beak which I was afraid to trim. Mostly because he will not hold his head still and I didn't want to hurt him. But a few days ago I noticed he quit eating all together. I found a way to trim the beak and did as much as I dare no blood when I was done what a relief. He is eating his Zoo med Forest diet again along with some leafy greens fruits and vegetables everything has a bit of calcium sprinkled over it with some in the water as well. And this is my concern with as much calcium that is both in the diet and more supplemented that beak was weak and brittle. I think something is wrong with his diet and I am accidentally feeding him something that is binding things like calcium preventing it from being utilized. I will start a journal of what he eats. We just moved as well and I think his humidity gauge is broken but I try to keep it 50 60% and the temp 85 to 90 Fahrenheit. I also live on the Oregon coast. Oh I nearly forgot Marshall is a red Foot Tortoise.
Any thoughts are much appreciated and if I left any critical information out please ask I'm very concerned about this brittle beak.
Victor

 

[ZEROPILOT]

You didn't mention a very important thing, UVB light.
Are you providing UV light?
With a correct diet and correct UV light, supplements aren't much needed for a Redfoot with any regularity.
A beak and the bones are effected by a lack of Calcium in D3. A lack of UV light makes calcium absorption impossible. No matter how much you dump on the food.
UV light converts calcium D3.
Your humidity is also too low.

 

[Marshall77]

I had turn the UVB light off because I was told that Forest tortoises don't need it as they would see very little sunlight on the forest floor. However with these health issues I turned it back on hoping that it would help and can't imagine it hurting anything. Besides even on the florist floor reptiles can seek out a bare spot where they can get some sun. I haven't been using it long enough to know if it's done much good he is more active. It's on during the day and turned off at night he has a ceramic heat lamp 4 temp. You also said something was too low I think it was temp what what is the correct level?

 

[Marshall77]

Oh oops humidity. Still what is the correct level? This form may be disagreeing with my previous research but it's making sense so far. I wonder how many more things I need to rethink.
All this is proving to be a little humbling if everything I learned was good and correct my tortoise would be healthy and I wouldn't be here. I think I'm going to like it here. I just wish I would have listened to my gut the first time when things weren't making sense.

 

[KarenSoCal]

Here's our care sheet for redfoot. It should help you out. But definitely follow whatever ZEROPILOT tells you...he's very knowledgeable and won't steer you wrong.

It's especially true for other species of tortoise, but there is so much old, wrong info online. I'm not surprised our advice seems to butt heads with what you've learned previously. But more is being learned about torts every day, and some of the members on this forum are the ones who lead the effort.

For some newcomers, we advise forgetting everything they read before they found TFO. I don't know if redfoot info is as bad as that, but keep that advice in mind.

Welcome to the forum!

Redfoot Tortoise Care Sheet

NOTE: I do not keep redfoots, and I only have one tortoise in total. With this in mind, remember that I am in no way an expert, and this should not be used as cold hard proof of how to raise a redfoot. I used information from great keepers on this forum to put everything together. This care...

www.tortoiseforum.org

 

[Marshall77]

Here's our care sheet for redfoot. It should help you out. But definitely follow whatever ZEROPILOT tells you...he's very knowledgeable and won't steer you wrong.

It's especially true for other species of tortoise, but there is so much old, wrong info online. I'm not surprised our advice seems to butt heads with what you've learned previously. But more is being learned about torts every day, and some of the members on this forum are the ones who lead the effort.

For some newcomers, we advise forgetting everything they read before they found TFO. I don't know if redfoot info is as bad as that, but keep that advice in mind.

Welcome to the forum!

Redfoot Tortoise Care Sheet

NOTE: I do not keep redfoots, and I only have one tortoise in total. With this in mind, remember that I am in no way an expert, and this should not be used as cold hard proof of how to raise a redfoot. I used information from great keepers on this forum to put everything together. This care...

www.tortoiseforum.org

That took a minute to read but I'm glad I did and before starting the new enclosure build it's going to be completely rethought to deal with those extremely high humidity requirements. But I got something's right like his terracotta food and water dish. The water dish does have a plastic liner it fits inside perfectly well and he's never tried to eat it but it don't really matter cuz he's about to outgrow the water dish anyway and will need a larger one.

 

[ZenHerper]

The various forms of Vitamin D are involved in the way the body moves calcium around the body (into bone, muscles, etc.), in killing cancer cells, and in immune modulation.

While various forms of Vitamin D can be obtained through diet and converted to D3, D3 can also be manufactured in the skin via exposure to uvb radiation.

All diurnal (active during sunlight hours) species seem to have this ability, and to rely on it. This would include tortoises and turtles that spend most of their time in shaded areas. Radiation moves around, so sunlight does not have to be direct.

A study of Vitamin D3 skin synthesis in piglets (ignore the cookies warning - link works):

Vitamin D metabolism in growing pigs: influence of UVB irradiation and dietary vitamin D supply on calcium homeostasis, its regulation and bone metabolism

The aim of this study was to prove whether pigs are able to synthesize vitamin D (vitD) in the skin and to investigate the influence of ultraviolet irradiation (UVB) on vitD status and calcium (Ca) h...

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

A deeper dive into Vitamin D (human):

(PDF) Vitamin D metabolism, functions and needs: From science to health claims

PDF | Background: Vitamin D is a nutrient long considered as essential for skeletal health but is now attracting interest from medical and nutritional... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

If calcium cannot be digested and absorbed into the blood, no amount of supplementation will help. In fact, too much calcium supplementation can cause serious health-damaging mineral imbalance and metabolic organ malfunction. (Vitamin D over-supplementation can also cause side effects, though more rarely.)

In short, there is no substitute for a varied and balanced natural-food diet in combination with a natural lifestyle that includes exposure to uvb radiation (direct or indirect, depending on how a species evolved).

@Marshall77 : you do not say what meat proteins your Redfoot eats -- this is a species that can and should eat some invertebrate/animal proteins a few times a week...insect exoskeleton and egg shell can be an adequate calcium source in balance with the phosphorous and magnesium present in plant matter.

 

[Marshall77]

Protein well here again I reverted back to my old knowledge. Before I let this one person change the way took care of my tortoise because he was supposed to be some kind of a professional. Okay enough about him he wasn't the only one just the biggest influence. Anyway before all this bad influence I had read someplace it redfoots need a certain amount of protein so last night when the dog and fish were sharing an egg Marshall had a good bit of it to boy did he like it.he got the whole egg white yolk and a little bit of shell I intentionally left behind. I don't know why I left a bit of shell behind it just seemed like the right thing to do. Getting back to the calcium I think now that the UV light is back and that makes so much sense even I am on a vitamin D supplement because of not getting enough Sun. But back to the light which I think I'm going to be replacing next time I go to the feed store I'm not sure how old it is and it's just been sitting there doing nothing for quite a long time so I think I'll replace it but as it is back I think I should cut this crazy calcium supplement back to. But how much? Twice a week twice a month? I'm thinking this daily bit is overreacting due to a panic response.

 

[ZenHerper]

...I think I should cut this crazy calcium supplement back to. But how much? Twice a week twice a month? I'm thinking this daily bit is overreacting due to a panic response.

Panic as a response to a perceived emergency is fine. But it makes a poor guide to action. Knowledge and common sense...vet your sources and compare your findings with established science.

Feed a variety of dark greens. Boil an egg on Sunday, then cut it into four pieces (leave the whole shell on). Give 1 piece every other day for the week.

Depending on your tort's age and size, offer an adult Dubia roach on the "off egg" days (or a small cooked shrimp - shell left on - if bugs aren't your thing).

Uvb bulbs do lose their potency over time. If you don't have a solar meter (they are expensive), then replace the tube every 6 months. Oregon can be a bit tricky for Redfoot-safe outdoor temps, but 20-30 minutes daily supervised in a large plastic tub works well when conditions allow.

@maggie3fan - do you have an impression about Redfoot outdoor sun prospects way up there?

 

[KarenSoCal]

Panic as a response to a perceived emergency is fine. But it makes a poor guide to action. Knowledge and common sense...vet your sources and compare your findings with established science.

Wow! This paragraph should be plastered EVERYWHERE! If people would read and heed, the world would be a much nicer place! ??

 

[Marshall77]

I don't mind insects but dubia roaches I would have to order online and then raise. Not hard but I'm sure my roommate would respond with. You want to raise what??

The sun is pathetic here. People comment that the tent on my glasses isn't very good but when the UV index gets high enough they darken to the point where you can't see my eyes behind them. On those days Marshall gets a bit of natural son but it's much too rare to rely on for any kind of lasting health benefits.

 

[ZenHerper]

I don't mind insects but dubia roaches I would have to order online and then raise. Not hard but I'm sure my roommate would respond with. You want to raise what??

The sun is pathetic here. People comment that the tent on my glasses isn't very good but when the UV index gets high enough they darken to the point where you can't see my eyes behind them. On those days Marshall gets a bit of natural son but it's much too rare to rely on for any kind of lasting health benefits.

Shrimp it is! lol

Keep a good-quality uvb tube in use...if your habitat is heavily planted (as Redfoots like), then about 6 hours a day. If the enclosure has mostly open space, then 3 hours.

 

[Marshall77]

I had him in a 30-gallon aquarium because he gotten so sluggish. But it's been about a week since I forced myself to trim the beak( more needs to be done but he can eat now) and turn the UVB back on. He's been eating a little bit and is showing more energy but today when I offered him food instead of dragging himself out of his cave he came out with the high walk I haven't seen in I'm not sure how long. And has eaten all of his pellets the bits salad I picked out of my salad kale, spinach, radish tops there's a bunch of things in my salad even the grass from the rose bed. The rose bed hasn't seen any commercial fertilizers in more than eight years probably more than 10 other than cat and dog poo. I can't believe the Improvement and so fast about a week. I think he was just starving to death poor little guy. Probably for a long time too for 6 years old it seems he should be more than 5 and 1/2 in Long. I feel so bad but it was such a slow decline I didn't really notice until he stopped eating altogether. Funny I haven't been on this forum very long at all but it seems I've already identified to myths that I made the mistake of believing.
1. Red foot tortoises do not need UV light!
Given the experience that I've been talking about this doesn't seem to have any truth to it at all. I believe the UV light is aiding in Marshall's amazingly fast recovery.
2. Red foot tortoises only need 50 to 60% humidity!
With as much time as Marshall spends soaking in his water dish.( He is in it as we speak.) I suspect if I raise his humidity significantly this Behavior will subside somewhat. I need to start the designs for a much bigger home. I hereby challenge myself to design a home that you will all approve of and want for your own redfoots.
Victor

 

[Marshall77]

I took Marshall out for some exercise today as he seems to be getting active again. He got tired pretty quickly so I put him back. But I'll keep offering him exercise time at least once a day extending the time as he gets stronger and at some point we'll probably add obstacles for him to climb over. I also want to get started building a bigger home. Preferably before it gets any more complicated. Right now it looks like it may be 3 ft by 8 ft two-story with pants up top he has access to sort of.

 

[Melymann]

It’s very small thing but should help your anxiousness about calcium. I have a cuttlebone in my enclosure, per TFO instructions, and my tortoise periodically gnaws on it. This will help with his beak issues also. Beware he might to not touch it for a long time and then one day you will notice marks where he nibbled!

 

[Marshall77]

Oh yeah good idea and I should have some extras of the birds laying around. I wonder what Sushi will think of sharing her cuttlebones. I know kind of an odd name for a bird but it's what she came to us with. The lady named her kid ocean as well. Yeah I'm really not qualified to talk about what might be going on there so I won't.

 

[AgataP]

Oh yeah good idea and I should have some extras of the birds laying around. I wonder what Sushi will think of sharing her cuttlebones. I know kind of an odd name for a bird but it's what she came to us with. The lady named her kid ocean as well. Yeah I'm really not qualified to talk about what might be going on there so I won't.

Get him his own cuttlebone sharing is not a good idea. If you mean one has it for like a day and other has it later.
Also for egg shells - recommended to actually turn it into a powder if you going to use it. This helps to avoid any chances of a shell lodging in a pallet, cutting torts mouth and possible choking hazard as we know they just take chunks.This was a vet recommendation for my dog (big dog). Seems logical after I accidentally had a piece of eggshell left on my egg and it cut my mouth I am like yup, grind it ??. Hope Marshall is getting better everyday. Cheers!

 

[Marshall77]

Get him his own cuttlebone sharing is not a good idea. If you mean one has it for like a day and other has it later.
Also for egg shells - recommended to actually turn it into a powder if you going to use it. This helps to avoid any chances of a shell lodging in a pallet, cutting torts mouth and possible choking hazard as we know they just take chunks.This was a vet recommendation for my dog (big dog). Seems logical after I accidentally had a piece of eggshell left on my egg and it cut my mouth I am like yup, grind it ??. Hope Marshall is getting better everyday. Cheers!

I'm not talking about literally sharing a cuttlebone it's just the birds stash of cuttlebones Marshall will get his own. As fare as eggshell I don't know I mite just give him hole snails instead.

 

[Marshall77]

I'm not talking about literally sharing a cuttlebone it's just the birds stash of cuttlebones Marshall will get his own. As fare as eggshell I don't know I mite just give him hole snails instead.

Did I forget to put my reasoning for using land snails instead of egg shells? I thought I put it in but I'll do it again. My reasoning is snails build their shells with calcium just like chicken do at least aquatic snails do and I don't see why land snails would be any different. But because of your choking concern I thought about the fact that the land snails have a much thinner and softer shell and probably quite a bit less calcium to but what good is calcium if the mechanism of getting it into your pet kills it. I learned this reasoning at a very tender age. One day my mom was cleaning my first fish tank because I was about four years old. She had it up over the sink and was scrubbing it out nice and clean when I asked a question. Mom don't you think there is a better way of doing this considering when you're done most of the fish die? She replied with. They need a clean home don't they? I knew better than to say this so I didn't say much of anything but I thought. What good is a clean home if your dead? I didn't know it at the time but I had just started to figure out the concept of a water change. I had finished the concept and was using it for a few years before I finally had access to the internet and could put a name to my method a water change how simple. But because I had to figure it out for myself first I think I understand it better than most.

 

[ZenHerper]

The meat-to-shell ratio for snails is very poor. Redfoots need and crave meat proteins. If you gave as many snails as would be needed for a protein source, the calcium may be overdone (or you would be pulling snails out of the shells - most people don't enjoy that). If you are committed to using aquarium snails, balance the meat ratio with some boiled chicken thigh meat.

Eggs work so well with omnivores because they are complete protein sources, and are in a good balance with respect to their calcium. (A boiled egg can be rolled on a countertop to break up the shell before slicing.)