Looking For Early Signs of Pyramiding w/ Pics

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Yvonne G

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Note from moderator:

Please remember that this is lestaHIM's thread. If you are wondering if your tortoise is starting to pyramid, please start your own thread. I have split off two different questions about other tortoises pyramiding, and now you will get your own answers and probably more attention to your question.

Thank you...
 

LestatHIM

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I'm going to post a few updated pics of my little guy. He has grown substantially since his last pics and I can't tell if he has "notches" or not. I apologize ahead of time for the pics being all over the place. He wasn't being too complacent to my picture requests haha.

Let me know what you think!
 

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LuckysGirl007

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Hmmmm....hard to tell. How old is he now? Any idea how early pyramiding can be clearly seen?

But very handsome he is!
 

DeanS

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It's ever so slight! If you're not soaking then do so...twice a day...at least 30 minutes per session.
 

LestatHIM

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LuckysGirl007 said:
Hmmmm....hard to tell. How old is he now? Any idea how early pyramiding can be clearly seen?

But very handsome he is!



My thoughts exactly. From what I understand it's a pretty gradual process. I guess it can start even way before it's signs become visible. What's interesting about that in this case is that I have had him since he was 3 weeks old if that. His beginning few weeks he spent on Big Pine Key down in Florida. At this point I'd say he's about 3-4 months old. I can't recall the day I got him, but it was around the end of June to early July

DeanS said:
It's ever so slight! If you're not soaking then do so...twice a day...at least 30 minutes per session.

That's what I was afraid of... Believe it or not he actually get's soaked more than that. He get's sprayed probably 15 times a day. He's in a humid 150 gallon acrylic aquarium that is completely sealed which I spray down multiple times a day as well. Only thing that I have changed in the last month or so is added Mazuri to his diet. Not sure if thers has ever been a correlation between high protein/fiber diets and pyramiding...
 

NinjaTortoises

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Awesome coloring and doesnt look pyramided to me but the scutes look like its in the beginning process of it, its not as bad as mine were when i bought them, they had already some but im soaking and spraying them daily hopefully they grow smoother and hopefully yours does too :)
 

LestatHIM

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NinjaTortoises said:
Awesome coloring and doesnt look pyramided to me but the scutes look like its in the beginning process of it, its not as bad as mine were when i bought them, they had already some but im soaking and spraying them daily hopefully they grow smoother and hopefully yours does too :)

Why thank you :) I wish the best to you as well.
 

mainey34

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Looks like some slight pyramiding to me. Just keep up the soaks and what you are doing.
 

lovelyrosepetal

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To be honest, I don't see it. To me, your tortoise looks smooth and really nice. I am sure that Tom could tell you if you need to be concerned, not that everyone else hasn't offered great input, it is just that with all the experiments Tom has done I am sure he would be able to tell for sure. I mean no disrespect to any of the great keepers that offered great opinions about your tortoises' shell. I think that you are doing great. I have a thread about pyramiding in my tortoise and I see very slight pyramiding and all I can do is just to keep up what I am doing and hope for the best. It sounds to me, like you don't have anything to worry about but I am just a newbie and have had mine less than you have had yours. I got mine in the middle of July so mine are a little younger than yours. Good luck and keep us posted.:)
 

Tom

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Interesting... I call that center portion of each scute the "shield". That is the part they are born with and it has a little bit of a rough texture to it. All the new growth comes in the form of the rings that encircle each shield. The best I can tell from your pics is that he has had 4 or 5 good smooth growth rings, and now, after all that smooth growth, you do have a notch. Now don't misunderstand... It is very slight and probably totally inconsequential. It does not mean that your tortoise is going to be pyramided now. He is not. I do find it interesting though, and would love to try to figure out what has changed. This notch may well fill in as he grows. Either way, with your routine, and this far in to it, your tortoise is NOT going to pyramid.

Have you changed basking bulbs recently?
Made it hotter?
What is your basking temp?
Did your outdoor humidity recent change with the onset of fall?
Started using the indoor heat more?
Has he been indoors under the heat lamps more than before?
Any new foods?

I'm looking for some change that might explain the change in his growth pattern...
 

Dizisdalife

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Your tortoise looks very nice. Mine was very similar, but he was older when I got him and had started pyramiding. Then I was able to get smooth growth started. For several months I watched every new growth with nervous anticipation. Anytime there was the slightest rise I would increase the amount of spraying and seal his chamber tighter. Today his shell is not pyramided, but it is far from smooth. There are plenty of irregularities and uneven spots. Some of these I have seen correct themselves as new growth comes in.

My advice is to keep him moist, which you are doing, warm at night, and take him outside in the daytime as much as you can. Always have a good hiding spot for him outside so he can get away from the sun.
 

LestatHIM

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Tom said:
Interesting... I call that center portion of each scute the "shield". That is the part they are born with and it has a little bit of a rough texture to it. All the new growth comes in the form of the rings that encircle each shield. The best I can tell from your pics is that he has had 4 or 5 good smooth growth rings, and now, after all that smooth growth, you do have a notch. Now don't misunderstand... It is very slight and probably totally inconsequential. It does not mean that your tortoise is going to be pyramided now. He is not. I do find it interesting though, and would love to try to figure out what has changed. This notch may well fill in as he grows. Either way, with your routine, and this far in to it, your tortoise is NOT going to pyramid.

Have you changed basking bulbs recently?
Made it hotter?
What is your basking temp?
Did your outdoor humidity recent change with the onset of fall?
Started using the indoor heat more?
Has he been indoors under the heat lamps more than before?
Any new foods?

I'm looking for some change that might explain the change in his growth pattern...

Thanks for the input Tom. How often is he supposed to have these growth rings? You say he has 4-5 now, how many did he have in the initial pics that I through up a month or so ago? Sorry I don't really know exactly what I'm looking for...

In regards to the pyramiding, he's probably about 3-4 months old. Is the factor of whether one is going to pyramid or not determined within those first few months entirely?

In terms of variables it's hard to tell. I have tried a variety of different enclosures and procedures since I got him. I started him in a tortoise table with cypress mulch and coir mix. This was pretty ridiculous because I had to dump water into it and I had a humidifier on in the room 24/7. At points a cloud would literally form in there. I got sick of this routine and decided to go with a 100 gallon tank so that I could retain humidity without destroying my house. I decided to use coir without cypress to try and keep the moisture better. What happened exactly was the Coir started growing mold and started stinking. So I had to dump the entire thing out and start over. This time I used just cypress mulch. This has been by far the best in terms of humidity and cleanliness and is currently the setup I am using.

Throughout this whole process I was soaking at least once a day if not more. I missed a day or two I'm sure of that, though not many more. I have always sprayed a few times a day.

Other than that the only thing that has changed is that I added Mazuri to his diet about a month or so ago. I'm currently doing a study on Cycluras and have bags of the tortoise chow around my house. First time I offered it to him he was all over it. He has since ate one pellet or so per day. It appears that his growth has accelerated since this addition though I can't be sure. In the original pics about a month ago he had never had Mazuri. He has grown pretty substantially since then though I don't know what constitutes as natural for them and what not. You'll be able to tell more than me if the growth rates look normal based on the two sets of pics.

I think that pretty much sums up all the variables that I can think of. Let me know what you think.

Thanks!



Dizisdalife said:
Your tortoise looks very nice. Mine was very similar, but he was older when I got him and had started pyramiding. Then I was able to get smooth growth started. For several months I watched every new growth with nervous anticipation. Anytime there was the slightest rise I would increase the amount of spraying and seal his chamber tighter. Today his shell is not pyramided, but it is far from smooth. There are plenty of irregularities and uneven spots. Some of these I have seen correct themselves as new growth comes in.

My advice is to keep him moist, which you are doing, warm at night, and take him outside in the daytime as much as you can. Always have a good hiding spot for him outside so he can get away from the sun.

I'm sorry to hear that. I wish you and him the best in his future growths.

I'm the exact same way with the nervous anticipation and what not. I have tried to do everything right as best as I can. Hopefully this issue can be resolved quickly and he resume his healthy growth.



lovelyrosepetal said:
To be honest, I don't see it. To me, your tortoise looks smooth and really nice. I am sure that Tom could tell you if you need to be concerned, not that everyone else hasn't offered great input, it is just that with all the experiments Tom has done I am sure he would be able to tell for sure. I mean no disrespect to any of the great keepers that offered great opinions about your tortoises' shell. I think that you are doing great. I have a thread about pyramiding in my tortoise and I see very slight pyramiding and all I can do is just to keep up what I am doing and hope for the best. It sounds to me, like you don't have anything to worry about but I am just a newbie and have had mine less than you have had yours. I got mine in the middle of July so mine are a little younger than yours. Good luck and keep us posted.:)

I completely agree, Tom is an awesome guy to talk to about Sulcatas. I do appreciate everyone's advice, his included. His posts were actually the reason that I joined this site haha.

In regards to your tortoises, best of luck to you. I'm going to keep throwing up updated pics over the next few months just to give everyone an idea of where it's going.
 

lovelyrosepetal

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Hey LestatHim, You said that yours has grown substantially since you gave yours Mazuri. What were your weights and lengths when you first got it and what are they now? You were wondering if the protein had anything to do with it and if we could see the numbers it might help someone on the forum give you an idea on what is happening. I think I will do the same on my post and if anyone would be so kind they can look at it and tell me what they think, also. Good Luck!:)
 

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Just curious, is this your first sulcata or pet tortoise you are raising?
 

Tom

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He had two growth rings in the first set of pics. They all grow at different rates, so there is no time frame when they are supposed to get them. The more they grow, the more rings you will be able to count.

The first few weeks of life are by far the most crucial. By the time they reach 6-8" the pattern for smooth growth is pretty well set, and you don't really have to worry about pyramiding after that point.

Daily Mazuri will make them grow faster. I haven't found that faster growth CAUSES pyramiding, but if conditions are wrong, faster growth will accentuate it. Yet that same speed of growth will not result in pyramiding if conditions are correct. From what I have read here, YOUR conditions are correct. I would still cut back to feeding Mazuri only two or three times a week.
 

LestatHIM

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lovelyrosepetal said:
Hey LestatHim, You said that yours has grown substantially since you gave yours Mazuri. What were your weights and lengths when you first got it and what are they now? You were wondering if the protein had anything to do with it and if we could see the numbers it might help someone on the forum give you an idea on what is happening. I think I will do the same on my post and if anyone would be so kind they can look at it and tell me what they think, also. Good Luck!:)

Hey Lovely yes that is correct. I actually don't have measurements or weights from the time I got him, what I do have however are Tupperware containers he has grown out of. When I first got him I'd soak him in the one and he eventually grew big enough that he could get up over the sides. I had a second that this happened with as well now I'm on my third.

I think it's definitely a good idea to go about posting some stuff. If for nothing else a record for yourself.

Urtle said:
Just curious, is this your first sulcata or pet tortoise you are raising?

Urtle, yes this is my first tortoise. I deal with the genus Cyclura of the Iguanidae family as my hobby (now job). I have had many different reptiles but no tortoises. Mostly just Iguanidae and snakes.

Tom said:
He had two growth rings in the first set of pics. They all grow at different rates, so there is no time frame when they are supposed to get them. The more they grow, the more rings you will be able to count.

The first few weeks of life are by far the most crucial. By the time they reach 6-8" the pattern for smooth growth is pretty well set, and you don't really have to worry about pyramiding after that point.

Daily Mazuri will make them grow faster. I haven't found that faster growth CAUSES pyramiding, but if conditions are wrong, faster growth will accentuate it. Yet that same speed of growth will not result in pyramiding if conditions are correct. From what I have read here, YOUR conditions are correct. I would still cut back to feeding Mazuri only two or three times a week.

Thanks for all the info as usual Tom. Always extremely helpful!




I actually just found another way to keep an enclosure really humid. I got a fish tank and stacked one on top of it. In the bottom one I sprayed a bunch of water inside of it and threw an under the tank heat pad that are used for snakes. This increased the humidity to roughly 100% and it's not dropping. Just something interesting someone may want to try especially for night time keeping. I find it difficult some times to keep the humidity up at because my 160 watt Mega Rays aren't on, therefore not as much evaporation/condensation is occurring. With this set up, it seems to retain heat as well as humidity with no problem in the dark.
 
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