As far as this particular thread goes, there seems to be two different debates that can take place here:
- whether or not to feed live prey to other animals
- whether or not to feed kittens/cats to other animals
I think it would behoove all of us to make sure we are distinguishing the two.
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Well, most snakes don't eat captive-bred white albino European mice. Leopard geckos do not naturally eat crickets. Bearded dragons and monitor lizards do not naturally eat Dubia roaches. Where do you draw the line? Is every gecko keeper who feeds their pets live insects an "animal abuser"?
As someone said it earlier, the pros of offering a predatory reptile pre-killed prey over live prey does indeed outweigh the cons. However, as they also mentioned, there are occasional picky eaters. I could go on for paragraphs on the unique scents of the captive "lab" mice and rats commonly used as reptile feeders, and why it really isn't surprising why many snakes (especially younger ones) don't want to have anything to do with a lukewarm, thawed-out white European mouse. Sometimes you have to go live. Personally, I don't like feeding live mainly for economical reasons more than anything else. Money aside, I really don't get any more enjoyment of my snakes eating a live mouse than I do of them eating dead ones. At the end of the day, I'm just glad they ate.
I once posted a video on youtube of one of my kingsnakes of which I fed an African housesnake. Not a common practice of mine, but I had my reasons, and I thought it would be a fascinating thing to watch. Not surprisingly, I got a little flack from some fellow snake keepers for doing so ("OMG, how could you feed one of your snakes to another snake? Wahhh!!!"). Personally, I was a little amused at the hypocrisy of it all, and called them out on it, posing the question how it was any different than feeding the snake a mouse.
That's what I have a problem with: hypocrisy. I know people who love watching Animal Planet (which utterly blows nowadays, in case anyone wasn't aware) or NatGeo of a lioness attacking and killing a buffalo, or a killer whale tossing a baby seal back and forth in the surf like a dog toy, or a hawk swooping out of the sky to grab a fish....but they scream bloody murder if they even HEAR about someone feeding a mouse (dead or alive) to a snake.
Now I can understand that some people should use discretion. Its one thing to objective document a feeding, or maybe videotape it to use as an instructional thing or something. Its another to deliberately feed a live animal to another just for sensationalism, and I think most of us can tell the difference (usually the latter has loud heavy metal music playing in the background). That said, I don't think every video of a snake eating a live mouse on YouTube deserves to be flagged.
Remember tortoises eat mice too! When someone posted that video of the redfoot munching on a pre-killed mouse, I actually found that interesting. Its one thing to read that they eat mice in a caresheet, but to actually see one chow down on a sizable vertebrate prey item like that was kinda weird and cool. I don't think I would ever offer a mouse to my RF just because of the mess factor, but it was interesting nonetheless. I think people just need to get in touch with nature a little more. All these squeamish types that are squawking about how its "cruel" that animals eat other animals....makes me wonder what on earth do you teach your kids?
Are people who feed live crickets and minnows to large cichlid fish considered "animal abusers"?
So Dmmj, I'm gonna put you on the spot. I will openly admit that by your definition above, I am guilty of animal abuse and cruelty. There's a reasonable chance I may commit such acts in the future.
Are you going to come hang me for my sins?
- whether or not to feed live prey to other animals
- whether or not to feed kittens/cats to other animals
I think it would behoove all of us to make sure we are distinguishing the two.
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wellington said:Yes when an animal that is not in the wild is fed another animal that he for one would probably never get in the wild and for two, the animal being used has no chance as it is being fed in captivity. If I had my way, I would hang every animal abuser, but not to quickly die, oh no, a very slow death. I hate any and all animal abuse and abusers.dmmj said:But is an animal eating another animal, cruelty?
Well, most snakes don't eat captive-bred white albino European mice. Leopard geckos do not naturally eat crickets. Bearded dragons and monitor lizards do not naturally eat Dubia roaches. Where do you draw the line? Is every gecko keeper who feeds their pets live insects an "animal abuser"?
As someone said it earlier, the pros of offering a predatory reptile pre-killed prey over live prey does indeed outweigh the cons. However, as they also mentioned, there are occasional picky eaters. I could go on for paragraphs on the unique scents of the captive "lab" mice and rats commonly used as reptile feeders, and why it really isn't surprising why many snakes (especially younger ones) don't want to have anything to do with a lukewarm, thawed-out white European mouse. Sometimes you have to go live. Personally, I don't like feeding live mainly for economical reasons more than anything else. Money aside, I really don't get any more enjoyment of my snakes eating a live mouse than I do of them eating dead ones. At the end of the day, I'm just glad they ate.
I once posted a video on youtube of one of my kingsnakes of which I fed an African housesnake. Not a common practice of mine, but I had my reasons, and I thought it would be a fascinating thing to watch. Not surprisingly, I got a little flack from some fellow snake keepers for doing so ("OMG, how could you feed one of your snakes to another snake? Wahhh!!!"). Personally, I was a little amused at the hypocrisy of it all, and called them out on it, posing the question how it was any different than feeding the snake a mouse.
That's what I have a problem with: hypocrisy. I know people who love watching Animal Planet (which utterly blows nowadays, in case anyone wasn't aware) or NatGeo of a lioness attacking and killing a buffalo, or a killer whale tossing a baby seal back and forth in the surf like a dog toy, or a hawk swooping out of the sky to grab a fish....but they scream bloody murder if they even HEAR about someone feeding a mouse (dead or alive) to a snake.
Now I can understand that some people should use discretion. Its one thing to objective document a feeding, or maybe videotape it to use as an instructional thing or something. Its another to deliberately feed a live animal to another just for sensationalism, and I think most of us can tell the difference (usually the latter has loud heavy metal music playing in the background). That said, I don't think every video of a snake eating a live mouse on YouTube deserves to be flagged.
Remember tortoises eat mice too! When someone posted that video of the redfoot munching on a pre-killed mouse, I actually found that interesting. Its one thing to read that they eat mice in a caresheet, but to actually see one chow down on a sizable vertebrate prey item like that was kinda weird and cool. I don't think I would ever offer a mouse to my RF just because of the mess factor, but it was interesting nonetheless. I think people just need to get in touch with nature a little more. All these squeamish types that are squawking about how its "cruel" that animals eat other animals....makes me wonder what on earth do you teach your kids?
Are people who feed live crickets and minnows to large cichlid fish considered "animal abusers"?
wellington said:dmmj said:But is an animal eating another animal, cruelty?
Yes when an animal that is not in the wild is fed another animal that he for one would probably never get in the wild and for two, the animal being used has no chance as it is being fed in captivity. If I had my way, I would hang every animal abuser, but not to quickly die, oh no, a very slow death. I hate any and all animal abuse and abusers.
So Dmmj, I'm gonna put you on the spot. I will openly admit that by your definition above, I am guilty of animal abuse and cruelty. There's a reasonable chance I may commit such acts in the future.
Are you going to come hang me for my sins?