Live kitten fed to burmese python

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StudentoftheReptile

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As far as this particular thread goes, there seems to be two different debates that can take place here:
- whether or not to feed live prey to other animals
- whether or not to feed kittens/cats to other animals

I think it would behoove all of us to make sure we are distinguishing the two.
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wellington said:
dmmj said:
But is an animal eating another animal, cruelty?
Yes when an animal that is not in the wild is fed another animal that he for one would probably never get in the wild and for two, the animal being used has no chance as it is being fed in captivity. If I had my way, I would hang every animal abuser, but not to quickly die, oh no, a very slow death. I hate any and all animal abuse and abusers.

Well, most snakes don't eat captive-bred white albino European mice. Leopard geckos do not naturally eat crickets. Bearded dragons and monitor lizards do not naturally eat Dubia roaches. Where do you draw the line? Is every gecko keeper who feeds their pets live insects an "animal abuser"?

As someone said it earlier, the pros of offering a predatory reptile pre-killed prey over live prey does indeed outweigh the cons. However, as they also mentioned, there are occasional picky eaters. I could go on for paragraphs on the unique scents of the captive "lab" mice and rats commonly used as reptile feeders, and why it really isn't surprising why many snakes (especially younger ones) don't want to have anything to do with a lukewarm, thawed-out white European mouse. Sometimes you have to go live. Personally, I don't like feeding live mainly for economical reasons more than anything else. Money aside, I really don't get any more enjoyment of my snakes eating a live mouse than I do of them eating dead ones. At the end of the day, I'm just glad they ate.

I once posted a video on youtube of one of my kingsnakes of which I fed an African housesnake. Not a common practice of mine, but I had my reasons, and I thought it would be a fascinating thing to watch. Not surprisingly, I got a little flack from some fellow snake keepers for doing so ("OMG, how could you feed one of your snakes to another snake? Wahhh!!!"). Personally, I was a little amused at the hypocrisy of it all, and called them out on it, posing the question how it was any different than feeding the snake a mouse.

That's what I have a problem with: hypocrisy. I know people who love watching Animal Planet (which utterly blows nowadays, in case anyone wasn't aware) or NatGeo of a lioness attacking and killing a buffalo, or a killer whale tossing a baby seal back and forth in the surf like a dog toy, or a hawk swooping out of the sky to grab a fish....but they scream bloody murder if they even HEAR about someone feeding a mouse (dead or alive) to a snake.

Now I can understand that some people should use discretion. Its one thing to objective document a feeding, or maybe videotape it to use as an instructional thing or something. Its another to deliberately feed a live animal to another just for sensationalism, and I think most of us can tell the difference (usually the latter has loud heavy metal music playing in the background). That said, I don't think every video of a snake eating a live mouse on YouTube deserves to be flagged.

Remember tortoises eat mice too!;) When someone posted that video of the redfoot munching on a pre-killed mouse, I actually found that interesting. Its one thing to read that they eat mice in a caresheet, but to actually see one chow down on a sizable vertebrate prey item like that was kinda weird and cool. I don't think I would ever offer a mouse to my RF just because of the mess factor, but it was interesting nonetheless. I think people just need to get in touch with nature a little more. All these squeamish types that are squawking about how its "cruel" that animals eat other animals....makes me wonder what on earth do you teach your kids?

Are people who feed live crickets and minnows to large cichlid fish considered "animal abusers"?

wellington said:
dmmj said:
But is an animal eating another animal, cruelty?


Yes when an animal that is not in the wild is fed another animal that he for one would probably never get in the wild and for two, the animal being used has no chance as it is being fed in captivity. If I had my way, I would hang every animal abuser, but not to quickly die, oh no, a very slow death. I hate any and all animal abuse and abusers.

So Dmmj, I'm gonna put you on the spot. I will openly admit that by your definition above, I am guilty of animal abuse and cruelty. There's a reasonable chance I may commit such acts in the future.

Are you going to come hang me for my sins? :rolleyes:
 

Jacqui

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wellington said:
A hanging of a criminal, who cares! In this country, USA, animal abuse is against the law. We have come along way in this country, to fight animal abuse and still have a ways to go. The acceptance of this kind of behavior should not be tolerated as it is a set back. If the animal is humanely killed first then that is one thing, to feed while alive is not and should not be excepted, not if you are a sane human, kitten or mouse, it is animal abuse. You do know what most child abusers started out as don't you? If you are okay with a live animal purposely being fed to another live animal, I don't care who you are, you are one sick ******! I will always be against any and all animal abuse, and I don't take it litely as you can tell. I will fight for them with everything I have.
I am out now on this one, as my blood pressure has tripled. I should have taken the others advice and past in the first place.
Proud member of 5 animal rights groups.
I

I care! That's who. You do realize that there are some folks who honestly believe keeping any wild animal including a tortoise captive is animal abuse? So your saying I should not care, if they are leading you to the ole hanging tree????? So is it not animal abuse, if your doing it?

I believe all child abusers started out as babies... :D I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong on that.

I guess I am the proud member of the human race, who thinks before throwing stones, I had better be sure I too am not deserving of the stones to be thrown at me. ;)

Seriously, is your blood pressure has tripled, I do think you need to remove yourself from this debate. I hate the thought that any of our members could become sick. Hope you get better. :tort:
 

Katherine

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wellington said:
Yes when an animal that is not in the wild is fed another animal that he for one would probably never get in the wild


I own many well cared for animals, am a 12yr vegan, an avid animal lover and activist and I just learned tonight on a tortoise forum that I could be considered an 'animal abuser' for feeding a python I rescued, treated, and held onto when previous owners couldn't afford vet bills for an obstruction. : ((((

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I guess I should have passed this post by, lesson learned.
 

ALDABRAMAN

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exoticsdr said:
Terry Allan Hall said:
My gripe is that idiots like this make ALL of us who keep large snakes look scummy and/or demented...and give politicians more reasons to outlaw what we love as pets.

I feed my snakes in private and NEVER would I post a video of their feedings on YouTube for precisely this reason.

Absolutely!

+1
 

cherylim

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wellington said:
A hanging of a criminal, who cares! In this country, USA, animal abuse is against the law. We have come along way in this country, to fight animal abuse and still have a ways to go. The acceptance of this kind of behavior should not be tolerated as it is a set back. If the animal is humanely killed first then that is one thing, to feed while alive is not and should not be excepted, not if you are a sane human, kitten or mouse, it is animal abuse. You do know what most child abusers started out as don't you? If you are okay with a live animal purposely being fed to another live animal, I don't care who you are, you are one sick ******! I will always be against any and all animal abuse, and I don't take it litely as you can tell. I will fight for them with everything I have.
I am out now on this one, as my blood pressure has tripled. I should have taken the others advice and past in the first place.
Proud member of 5 animal rights groups.
I


And in some countries, some have come a long way in other areas, too. The death penalty, for example. Double standards, is it not, to be fine with people killing a live human in a slow and painful way, but not to let an animal consume another animal in a way that's natural to them, for the purposes of gaining nutrition?

I'm aware you might not be looking in this thread again, but I'm just surprised (as an animal-lover myself) that some can be so adamantly against nature.

Now, I didn't watch the video as it's not something I wanted to see. I struggle enough with watching these things on animal documentaries but I tend to watch because I like to learn. I don't know if this was intended to be educational or sensationalist. If it's educational, excellent - I think it's interesting to learn about animal behaviours even if it's a little hard to watch. If it's sensationalist, it's upsetting, but at the same time the way the guy filmed the video shouldn't have any impact on his punishment because the action was the same - he was feeding his snake.

The same applies for us humans. I love animals, I do my best to care for each and every one and to show them respect and treat them as my equal, but I am a meat-eater. Again, it's nature, and though I wasn't the same in my past I will now try ANY hygenic meat. I used to refuse to eat deer, duck, any animal that I'd not been eating from a young age because I pictured them in animal form. Now that I've grown up a little, I realise there's no point distinguishing between chicken and duck, deer and sheep - they're all animals I'm eating, and though I probably don't approve of how they're being slaughtered I don't have a problem eating them in the end because I'm human.

We have taken these animals out of their natural environments. As the ones responsible for their care, the least we can do is bring some of that back to them with live meals if they would usually consume live prey. To me, it's more abusive to be forcing them to live to our morals.
 

Terry Allan Hall

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wellington said:
dmmj said:
But is an animal eating another animal, cruelty?


Yes when an animal that is not in the wild is fed another animal that he for one would probably never get in the wild and for two, the animal being used has no chance as it is being fed in captivity. If I had my way, I would hang every animal abuser, but not to quickly die, oh no, a very slow death. I hate any and all animal abuse and abusers.

I understand your feelings, but pythons, which come from Africa, Asia and Australia, often DO eat cats in the wild, as they hang around human settlements looking for domestic animals (cats, dogs, poultry, etc.), which are plentiful where humans are.

cherylim said:
wellington said:
A hanging of a criminal, who cares! In this country, USA, animal abuse is against the law. We have come along way in this country, to fight animal abuse and still have a ways to go. The acceptance of this kind of behavior should not be tolerated as it is a set back. If the animal is humanely killed first then that is one thing, to feed while alive is not and should not be excepted, not if you are a sane human, kitten or mouse, it is animal abuse. You do know what most child abusers started out as don't you? If you are okay with a live animal purposely being fed to another live animal, I don't care who you are, you are one sick ******! I will always be against any and all animal abuse, and I don't take it litely as you can tell. I will fight for them with everything I have.
I am out now on this one, as my blood pressure has tripled. I should have taken the others advice and past in the first place.
Proud member of 5 animal rights groups.
I


And in some countries, some have come a long way in other areas, too. The death penalty, for example. Double standards, is it not, to be fine with people killing a live human in a slow and painful way, but not to let an animal consume another animal in a way that's natural to them, for the purposes of gaining nutrition?

I'm aware you might not be looking in this thread again, but I'm just surprised (as an animal-lover myself) that some can be so adamantly against nature.

Now, I didn't watch the video as it's not something I wanted to see. I struggle enough with watching these things on animal documentaries but I tend to watch because I like to learn. I don't know if this was intended to be educational or sensationalist. If it's educational, excellent - I think it's interesting to learn about animal behaviours even if it's a little hard to watch. If it's sensationalist, it's upsetting, but at the same time the way the guy filmed the video shouldn't have any impact on his punishment because the action was the same - he was feeding his snake.

The same applies for us humans. I love animals, I do my best to care for each and every one and to show them respect and treat them as my equal, but I am a meat-eater. Again, it's nature, and though I wasn't the same in my past I will now try ANY hygenic meat. I used to refuse to eat deer, duck, any animal that I'd not been eating from a young age because I pictured them in animal form. Now that I've grown up a little, I realise there's no point distinguishing between chicken and duck, deer and sheep - they're all animals I'm eating, and though I probably don't approve of how they're being slaughtered I don't have a problem eating them in the end because I'm human.

We have taken these animals out of their natural environments. As the ones responsible for their care, the least we can do is bring some of that back to them with live meals if they would usually consume live prey. To me, it's more abusive to be forcing them to live to our morals.

An interesting take on the subject. :cool:
 

Neltharion

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cherylim said:
We have taken these animals out of their natural environments. As the ones responsible for their care, the least we can do is bring some of that back to them with live meals if they would usually consume live prey. To me, it's more abusive to be forcing them to live to our morals.

Excellent point.
 

Wicked Demon

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Some people have major issues.
There IS risk in feeding ANY animal with claws or teeth, not to mention the terrifying and very painfull death for the prey!!!:(
Also I have owned a few snakes over the years, and the only ones that even tried to bite me were live fed.
FWIW~Dont bother replying as I am not open minded enough to be talked into the torture of one animal, while risking the health of another, for my own deranged amusement.~:(
 

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Carnivorous animals are scary. I cannot imagine feeding them live animals. That's why I love vegetarian tortoises :D
 

Zamric

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WOW! this thread is Hoppin"!

For the record I posted once here and I did NOT watch the video. NO need to, not interested!

I did post because the subject matter is close to my heart. My second wife would not let me have a snake because SHE was a vegitarian and thought that EVERYTHING should be Vegitarian, even to the point of buying our dog Vegan Dog Food (yes, it does exist!). One of the reasons that she is also my second Ex-wife! (and the dog stayed with me because he too enjoys dead animal flesh!)

I didn't get a snake BECAUSE of "Live Feedings" but it is a bonus. I have always been enchanted by reptiles ever since my 1st visit to a Reptile House. Now I'm old enough to be able to raise and enjoy any pet I want and I chose Snakes and Tortoises. Am I an animal abuser for Live Feedings? I dont think so but then again I don't concider myself a child abuser because I swat my kids when they get out of line. They grew up to be fine, outstanding adults and my snake seems to be happy and healthy. ABUSE? REALLY? sounds like some people need to open thier eyes and take a really good look at the World today!

... 'nuff said...
 
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