Lighting / Heating Help - Hermann UK

Which lighting/heating

  • Combined MVB

    Votes: 1 11.1%
  • MVB as above + Tube Heater/Thermotube

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Separate UV & Basking Bulb

    Votes: 6 66.7%
  • Separate UV & Basking Bulb + Tube Heater/Thermotube

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Separate UV & Arcadia Deep Heat Projector IR Bulb

    Votes: 2 22.2%
  • Separate UV & Basking Bulb & Arcadia Deep Heat Projector IR Bulb

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    9

shellyshelly

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Hi All,

My first post here!

I've been researching Tortoise for months as we are planning on getting a Hermann soon. I want to make sure we have everything we need in advance & know what we are doing.

I'm still struggling with heating/lighting & even after thinking I had it all sussed, I'm now having second thoughts!

If anyone is able to offer the thoughts on the following options so as to help me make my final decision that would be great!

1. Combined MVB
Pros:
  • Takes up less space, looks better?
  • Easy to maintain
  • Only one thing to replace, may work out cheaper long term?
  • Photo gradient is same for both heat & light
Cons:
  • Less flexibility
  • As they are concentrated, if they are moved away to suit heat, parts of the enclosure may not get enough UV & ff moved to suit UV, they can be too hot.
  • May be too concentrated for young tortoise.
  • Cannot be controlled by thermostat. Have to move up & down.
  • MVB are designed for 4-7 hours a day max
  • More likely to have cold/dark areas in larger table

2. As MVB as above + Tube Heater/Thermotube for night (to ensure temperature doesn't drop below 15C over night in winter etc)

3. Separate UV (Arcada UV Flood 55cm) & Basking Bulb
Pros:
  • UV & Heat can be controlled separately (position, height, temperature, light/heat period)
  • Less likely to burn animal.
  • More flexible – we can change our mind on basking bulb, without changing uv bulb etc
  • Better coverage (less unwanted cold/shade areas)
  • Heat can be stat controlled
Cons:
  • Takes up more space
  • More expensive

4. Separate UV (Arcada UV Flood 55cm) & Basking Bulb + Tube Heater/Thermotube for night

5. Separate UV (Arcada UV Flood 55cm) & Arcadia Deep Heat Projector IR Bulb
Pros:
  • All as 3 above +
  • IR heat better/more natural
  • Can also use IR bulb at night as it is dark (may not need any extra heating in 2/4 above)
Cons:
  • Lack of white light in basking area - maybe doesn't even matter as we have UV?
6. Seperate UV (Arcada UV Flood 55cm) & Standard Bulb & Deep Heat IR
Pros
  • as per 5 above +
  • Ultimate flexibility – we can use them all at once, or alternate, or use IR at night only etc.
  • Have standard natural white light + the IR light – we don't have to choose between them
Cons:
  • Takes up even more space
 

Jimb

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My Eastern Hermanns tortoise named Mudflap who will be 2 years old next month, uses a 100Mw MegaRay for both UVB & Heat as I never let the room temp get below 68-70 degrees. She's never been in a fully enclosed pen but she does get a soaking every morning and I keep half of her COIR substrate damp. :tort:

Mudflap9_12_17a.JPG
 

shellyshelly

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Thanks for your reply. she is beautiful!

How do you stop the temp dropping overnight if you only have an MVB?
 

JoesMum

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Hello and welcome from Kent, UK :)

To understand heat and light you need to understand what they do:

A Hermann’s needs to bask at 95-100F/35-37C in order to raise its internal temperature so that it can digest food and be active. This lamp must be on continuously for 12-14 hours and the enclosure must be big enough for the tortoise to be able to move away from it and thermoregulate. This lamp must hang vertically to get an accurate temperature underneath. Temperature is controlled by raising or lowering the lamp as appropriate.

Your tortoise also needs UVB light. This enables it to make its own Vitamin D (it can’t take it from diet) which it uses to help it absorb calcium from its diet. The UVB lamp must also be on for 12-14 hours a day.

Put the daytime lights on timers to make life easy for you. You can have a lie in or go out and not worry!

Do not use clamp fittings. They fail and are a fire risk. It’s also difficult to get an exact basking temperature underneath.

Ways of doing this:
1. A Mercury Vapour Bulb that combines basking and UVB in one bulb. Note that the UVB output of MVBs stops long before these bulbs blow. They need replacing every 6-9 months.

2. Separate basking and UVB bulbs. Compact UVB isn’t recommended as they hurt tortoise eyes - despite being sold in pet stores for torts :( Tube UVB bulb output is sustained much longer than with MVB and doesn’t need replacement so frequently - 12-18 months. The basking bulb only needs replacing when it bulbs.

Your tortoise needs complete darkness at night.

Ambient warmth in the enclosure, day and night, can only be maintained in a closed chamber - this means the enclosure needs a roof/lid of some sort. To maintain ambient temperature you need a Ceramic Heat Emitter (CHE) with a thermostat. This can be on 24/7 as it only cuts in when needed.

I recommend you read the TFO care guides if you haven't already

They're written by species experts working hard to correct the outdated information widely available on the internet and from pet stores and, sadly, from some breeders and vets too.

Beginner Mistakes
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Baby Testudo Care - written about Russians but applies to Hermann’s
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...or-other-herbivorous-tortoise-species.107734/
 

shellyshelly

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Many thanks for the informative response.

Yes, I've done all the reading of the guides you've mentioned + others!

Most of what you say I have noted down already (the options I noted in the OP were based on my original notes).

What do you recommend as a lamp holder then? I was planning on using an Arcadia Ceramic Reflector Clamp Lamp - it would be restricted from falling by the cable itself & the clamp is then a fail safe. It also hash a mesh/gaurd to prevent injury/fire if it did fall.

Personally, I don't like the idea of a CHE - they get very hot (so more risky) and are not all that efficient. Thats why I was looking into the thermo tubes or arcadia deep heat reflector (which could also be used by day).
 

JoesMum

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Many thanks for the informative response.

Yes, I've done all the reading of the guides you've mentioned + others!

Most of what you say I have noted down already (the options I noted in the OP were based on my original notes).

What do you recommend as a lamp holder then? I was planning on using an Arcadia Ceramic Reflector Clamp Lamp - it would be restricted from falling by the cable itself & the clamp is then a fail safe. It also hash a mesh/gaurd to prevent injury/fire if it did fall.

Personally, I don't like the idea of a CHE - they get very hot (so more risky) and are not all that efficient. Thats why I was looking into the thermo tubes or arcadia deep heat reflector (which could also be used by day).

Clamp lamps just don’t work. You cannot get the basking lamp to point down vertically under it which makes it very hard to get the correct b temperature. You should never rely on a light’s cable to prevent it falling - that’s basic electrical and fire safety. These lamp holders are quite heavy.

You can buy reptile lamp stands easily to hang lamps from or you can make your own.

CHEs do get hot. You don’t have them close to the substrate. You do use a thermostat. And you do use a Ceramic Lamp Holder with them (MVBs need a Ceramic fitting too)

They are widely used, and trusted, by tortoise keepers around the world and are the best way of maintaining ambient heat. They also last a very long time.

Heat sources are not energy efficient. That’s why/how they get hot.
 

shellyshelly

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I wasn't meaning to rely on a clamp, nor to suspend from a cable at long distance! I'm talking about a good fixing above the enclosure (eg timber goal post) with a minimal drop from there to the lamp itself & the clamp as a back up. I think there is a hook on the arcadia reflectors I mentioned so that would be used also. Some of the lamp stands I've seen also don't look great & I've seen images of people simply hanging from them with the clamp that you are saying shouldn't be used.

Obviously its easier to check the fixing is safe once I have the equipment, but this all of this is only partially relevant to the post.

I understand that plenty use the CHEs & I will reconsider the CHE and do some more research.

However, the Arcadia deep heat projector does similar job, with additional benefits & is lower powered. Arcadia boast about this being the latest & greatest technology though I imagine they are too new to get much feedback from users.

The thermo tube I mentioned are also recommended by quite a few keepers as an alternative to CHEs & provide a gently warmth. Thats all I'm realy trying to produce over night.
 

Markw84

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I wasn't meaning to rely on a clamp, nor to suspend from a cable at long distance! I'm talking about a good fixing above the enclosure (eg timber goal post) with a minimal drop from there to the lamp itself & the clamp as a back up. I think there is a hook on the arcadia reflectors I mentioned so that would be used also. Some of the lamp stands I've seen also don't look great & I've seen images of people simply hanging from them with the clamp that you are saying shouldn't be used.

Obviously its easier to check the fixing is safe once I have the equipment, but this all of this is only partially relevant to the post.

I understand that plenty use the CHEs & I will reconsider the CHE and do some more research.

However, the Arcadia deep heat projector does similar job, with additional benefits & is lower powered. Arcadia boast about this being the latest & greatest technology though I imagine they are too new to get much feedback from users.

The thermo tube I mentioned are also recommended by quite a few keepers as an alternative to CHEs & provide a gently warmth. Thats all I'm realy trying to produce over night.
My thoughts...

MVB - I don't like them for tortoises. The UVB they do produce most often diminishes too rapidly and needs more frequent replacement. The light and heat they produce are concentrated because the source is a single bulb and the UVB and light diminishes rapidly and geometrically with distance from the bulb. They emit heat in the form of almost all near-IR (IR-A) which I believe is very desiccating on the carapace of a tortoise basking under the bulb. The light they do emit is more on the red end of the spectrum and tortoises benefit and get circannual and circadian clues from the blue end of the spectrum that is missing here. They cannot be used on a rheostat so lowering/raising is the only way to control heat and with that you are changing the UVB levels. It is also easy to get one mounted too close to where the tortoise can sit and result in eye damage.

Compact fluorescents. I do not have any problem with them causing eye damage specifically. ANY UVB source can and will cause eye damage if mounted too close. They are not a good choice for tortoises as they also emit light that is not bright enough to substantially light a tortoise enclosure and the source is small and so the UVB (and light) produced diminishes to practically nothing quite quickly with distance from the bulb. I use them for some hatchling aquatic turtle applications where a small basking area is needed and they can be mounted in any direction in tighter situations and used in hoods. Again, I feel they are not suited at all for tortoises, though.

Fluorescent tubes - T8 or T5. I think these are the best choices for tortoise enclosures for light and UVB. With a 4 foot tube you can have a nice wide area of light and UVB and create good gradients with shade and plant cover as well as distance from the bulb. But you are left with a wide area of good light and UVB. The color balance is closer to natural sunlight. This also allows for better plant growth if you use potted plants in your enclosure and a much more natural environment. They put out little heat, so heating can be controlled much more easily as a separate issue. I also personally like the combination of two fluorescents side by side. One a standard fluorescent (non UV producing) and as close to 5500K and 90+ CRI as you can find. That creates the ambient light and is as close to natural sunlight as you will create. Set it on a timer for 14 hours a day. Then a second one being a good 10.0 or 12.0 UVB tube set on timer for 3-5 hours midday, simulating peak midday sun. That will provide plenty of UVB, even reaching into the shaded areas under plants for "cryptic baskers". It creates an ambient peak day level. It also extends the life of your UVB tube over 3 times longer since it is only run midday, not all day. Tubes used in this manner can last over 4 years or more before needing replacement.

Regular incandescent lower wattage flood bulb - this creates a nice controllable level basking area and limits the near-IR at the basking area. You can set this on a rheostat and dial in the temperature you want to create at the basking area.

CHE's. I like these for ambient heat in an enclosed chamber. Used on a thermostat, the best way to regulate ambient temperature in an enclosure. Not too useful in an open table. Not good for basking heat. They produce mostly mid-IR which is good for overall heating and not as desiccating. I don't believe you will need one for a Testudo in a table if the room temperature is not unreasonably cool with nighttime drops.

Arcadia deep heat projector - I don't think I will like these for tortoises. I can see value for lizards. Focusing IR in a narrow basking location without associated light is not what I would be wanting to create. I like the hot spot to have associated "light" peak with it. Both heat and light for basking are easily controlled with the incandescent flood bulb mentioned above.

So to try to fit your choices, I will create a #7 as my choice.
#7 5500K fluorescent tube plus 12.0 UVB fluorescent tube with 50 - 75 watt incandescent flood bulb for basking area. No heat needed at night if room temperatures stay "reasonable".
 

shellyshelly

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Thanks, I agree about the MVB. I prefer the idea of UV tube & basking lamp. I then started doubting it as MVB would easier!

Its interesting that some state CHE or other heating is essential but others say its likely not needed. I do have thermometers (an IR gun for surface temp & a room thermometer which also shows the recent min/max) so I could leave the heat for now & monitor things before we get the tortoise.

What you say about the a standard basking bulb compared to the Deep Heat Projector is kind of how I felt (but couldn't explain well) that he lack of real light seems odd. But at the same time, the benefit of IR A/B could be beneficial. So that had me thinking that maybe both was the way to go!
 

JoesMum

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If you are getting a baby then temperatures should be kept warmer day and night than you would use for a more mature tortoise.

If you are getting a baby then I recommend you give this a read. It is written about Russians, but applies to all Testudo including Hermann's
tortoiseforum.org/threads/baby-russian-tortoise-care-sheet-also-for-other-herbivorous-tortoise-species.107734/
 

Markw84

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I agree with @JoesMum on that. If it is a hatchling I'd go closed chamber and control humidity and add a CHE to keep night temps up much more.

What you say about the a standard basking bulb compared to the Deep Heat Projector is kind of how I felt (but couldn't explain well) that he lack of real light seems odd. But at the same time, the benefit of IR A/B could be beneficial. So that had me thinking that maybe both was the way to go!

I really find quite a bit of fault with the marketing hype by Arcadia on their Deep Heat Projector. I do really like Arcadia products, but I think they missed the mark they way they are promoting this product. There is little benefit from IR-A. That is why I like to be able to limit it more with a low wattage bulb. Living tissue has even developed a defense where it will reflect IR-A as it can be so desiccating and penetrates into tissue far enough to reach hair follicles (and generative tissue forming keratin in tortoises). IR-B and IR-c does not do that. A CHE emits no IR-A. Just IR-B and a bit into the IR-C. I believe that is much more beneficial as living tissue and blood readily absorbs heat from IR-B and IR-C yet it has very little penetrating depth. A radiant heat panel emits only IR-C and therefore operates a much lower temperatures. They are another great choice for heating an enclosure.
 

Jimb

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Thanks for your reply. she is beautiful!

How do you stop the temp dropping overnight if you only have an MVB?

The room temperature in which my Torts and Iguanas reside never drops below 68-70 degrees F. So there's never been a worry. I do have a MegaRay Heat Projector for additional night-time heat, on my Leopard, my spiny-Tail, and my newly acquired baby Rhino, all of whom are in a fully enclosed Habitat.
 

shellyshelly

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Thanks, that sounds very similar to the Arcadia Deep Heat Projector
 

Jimb

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Thanks, that sounds very similar to the Arcadia Deep Heat Projector

Mega-Ray HP 60 Watt Heat Projector
$23.99
Mega-Ray® HP - 60 Watt Lightless Infra-Red Heat Projector

  • 120 volt
  • Fits standard ES lamp fixture
  • A revolutionary new design!
There is simply no other manufacturer that builds a heating device like this! Using only 60 watts, the Mega-Ray® HP projects more heat than a traditional 100 watt ceramic heat emitter* - but with no danger of burning you or your reptile!
 

shellyshelly

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Yep, pretty much the same right up as the Arcadia - I've not seen the Mega-Ray HP in the UK, so that might be why they still claim it as exclusive?
 

shellyshelly

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Ok, I've got my lighting now & have temporarily set them up so we can get used to them & work out ideal heights/positions before we pick up our tortoise!

On this forum, including posts above, a basking temp of 35-37°C is recommended. However, there are plenty of other places (including a breeder I have been speaking to) suggesting a lower temp of 32°C.

http://www.hermann-tortoise.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=6538
http://www.tortoisecentre.co.uk/Tortoise care.aspx

I know theres going to be varying opinions, but there is quite a difference between 32°C. & 37°C!
 

shellyshelly

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I've bought a stat so I can more accurately and conveniently control temps.

As a test, I've set up the light above some slate & have the probe from the stat nearby. aiming my ir gun directly under the lamp it reads 34.5, but the stat is giving me a temp of only 24.8.

I think this is due to the difference in air temp & surface temp?

When we see the suggested basking temp, I think that is a surface temp?

So I need to work out how to calibrate the stat (eg I want to set it so that its target temp achieves the basking temp when checking with the ir gun).
 
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