Kicking a bucket on cuttle bone

Kapidolo Farms

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Interesting Comment on this issue provided by an Amazon customer “JQ” regarding Calcium Carbonate/Limestone Powder being sold for poultry or reptiles.

  • There are more pure forms available for pet reptiles if you search for "precipitated calcium carbonate". While raw ground limestone such as this is probably healthier than no supplementation, the long-term difference between the 97% (industrial/animal grade) vs 100% purity (precipitated, food/pharma grade) will probably add up in the organ health & overall vitality of your pet if you plan on it living more than just a few years, and being as healthy as possible in old age. Even if we assume the 3% of impurities are non-toxic (mostly silica/sand & heavy metals, e.g. lead), it is 3% extra stress on the reptile's digestive system to extract the same amount of necessary nutrition. Perhaps that extra stress could prove deadly if the reptile is sick or old, or could result in weight issues etc over the long term. So yes, buy this if you don't want your pet to die immediately, or you plan on culling it soon anyways (e.g. chickens), but if you want to maximize your pets long-term health & perhaps save on some vet bills later, precipitated calcium carbinate would be a smarter purchase.
  • Also it should be noted that this non-precipitated ground grade is the type used in cheap human calcium supplements, which have been found to lead to dangerous lead accumulation in the elderly. I think the difference is, we should make extra efforts with our "exotic" pets & provide higher quality supplements than we would to ourselves, as unlike humans our pets cannot complain, or seek out medical help, or quit eating the supplement when they feel ill. Also if they get ill there is less chance of a reptile recovering compared to a human as there is less medical research & expertise for reptiles.


I found both are at 3.0 ppm lead, unless you get 'super low lead' which them has 0.3 ppm, 10x less. Pharma grade PCC still has lead in it. I'm not sure what 'cheap human calcium supplements' means exactly.

I got these numbers from this manufacture http://www.cbminerals.com/calcium-carbonate which offers many grades and the other % of stuff that is not calcium carbonate. There is no 100% pure from what I could find, unless you are going for a few grams at many 100's $ for some kind of research grade. I work in a research lab and this is about as good as it gets https://www.fishersci.com/shop/products/calcium-carbonate-powder-certified-acs-fisher-chemical-2/C64500?gclid=CjwKCAiAgrfhBRA3EiwAnfF4tgDpof6Jumr5r7tfecc5XkT3sGkEJcM59bkCoojHZ8YX3uSDN1tVMxoCDtwQAvD_BwE&campaign=GblChem-US_FC-Salts&adwordskeyword=calcium carbonate&adgroup=Calcium-carbonate&ef_id=CjwKCAiAgrfhBRA3EiwAnfF4tgDpof6Jumr5r7tfecc5XkT3sGkEJcM59bkCoojHZ8YX3uSDN1tVMxoCDtwQAvD_BwE:G:s&s_kwcid=AL!3652!3!69923413278!p!!g!!calcium carbonate where a half kilo is $400. Which still has 0.001 ppm lead, indeed very near pure.

I'm good with 'acceptable for organic food' grade. "Pure" is a theoretical definition, not something you can buy.
 

Madkins007

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A couple thoughts...

1. The problem with calcium supplements, including eggs, cuttlebone, and so on, is that for calcium to be absorbed, it has to be VERY FINE, otherwise very little is absorbed before it is passed through the system. Lots of supplements show no increase in calcium levels in the blood because the particles are just too big. (This is generally called 'bioavailability'.) However- even if most is excreted, what IS absorbed is helpful.

1a. Many sources I trust, like Dr. Maders 'Reptile Medicine and Surgery' book are not real fond of eggshells because of the grit and heavy metals. I don't know that their concern rises to the level of a 'don't do it' but perhaps using them more as a sort of weird treat?

2. Diet should be the main source of calcium (for humans, too). In the wild, many tortoise species are documented choosing calcium-rich plants over tastier options.

3. Forest tortoises especially seem to take advantage of other calcium sources, probably because many of the available foods are nutrient-poor. Most tortoises seem to go for things like snails, occasional small animals or carcasses, calcium deposits, and so on. Some hingebacks even actively fish and presumably benefit from the bones in the fish. The question about bioavailability apply to these as well.

My bottom line has been to work hard to provide calcium in diet (there are a lot of good sources that we sometimes don't think of, like dandelion and mulberry leaves, etc.) BUT I also used a fine calcium powder tossed into a weekly meal as insurance. I did notice quickly that if I did not mix it in, they often did not seem to like the meal- possibly because it looks like mildew or something.

You can kind of gauge how well a calcium supplement works by taking a dose of it and dumping it in some vinegar. The faster and more completely it dissolves, the better.
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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A couple thoughts...

1. The problem with calcium supplements, including eggs, cuttlebone, and so on, is that for calcium to be absorbed, it has to be VERY FINE, otherwise very little is absorbed before it is passed through the system. Lots of supplements show no increase in calcium levels in the blood because the particles are just too big. (This is generally called 'bioavailability'.) However- even if most is excreted, what IS absorbed is helpful.

1a. Many sources I trust, like Dr. Maders 'Reptile Medicine and Surgery' book are not real fond of eggshells because of the grit and heavy metals. I don't know that their concern rises to the level of a 'don't do it' but perhaps using them more as a sort of weird treat?

2. Diet should be the main source of calcium (for humans, too). In the wild, many tortoise species are documented choosing calcium-rich plants over tastier options.

3. Forest tortoises especially seem to take advantage of other calcium sources, probably because many of the available foods are nutrient-poor. Most tortoises seem to go for things like snails, occasional small animals or carcasses, calcium deposits, and so on. Some hingebacks even actively fish and presumably benefit from the bones in the fish. The question about bioavailability apply to these as well.

My bottom line has been to work hard to provide calcium in diet (there are a lot of good sources that we sometimes don't think of, like dandelion and mulberry leaves, etc.) BUT I also used a fine calcium powder tossed into a weekly meal as insurance. I did notice quickly that if I did not mix it in, they often did not seem to like the meal- possibly because it looks like mildew or something.

You can kind of gauge how well a calcium supplement works by taking a dose of it and dumping it in some vinegar. The faster and more completely it dissolves, the better.

So I understand you are saying ground chicken eggshells are the best . Cause there is less lead and heavy metals in them .
Cause we people have been dumping lead and heavy metals in our water ways for 100 years !
 

Madkins007

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So I understand you are saying ground chicken eggshells are the best . Cause there is less lead and heavy metals in them .
Cause we people have been dumping lead and heavy metals in our water ways for 100 years !
No, I'm saying that sources I trust DO NOT recommend eggshells because of grit and heavy metals. I personally recommend very fine calcium powder used relatively infrequently.
 
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