Kicking a bucket on cuttle bone

Kapidolo Farms

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Point taken @Markw84 and here is another study suggesting that Cuttle Fish can selectively reduce their tissue burden of heavy metals.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16336990

All those tortoises that consume cuttle fish might just not mind the fishy flavor, they might like it. It is not a redundancy or wild type behavior. bone, eggshell, and limestone are. I sought 'organic' cuttlebone, I did not find any.

@Will This paper deals with cuttlebone as a dead biomass. Much like carbon is used for removing heavy metals from water. How does this apply to cuttlebone removed from a cuttlefish (squid) during processing where the cuttlebone was not exposed to seawater as a dead biomass?
 

Erinelle

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I completely understand the concern for cuttlefish bone absorbing heavy metals from the sea. Even in the bones of cattle, metals are found. The body stores excess heavy metals in bone because the metals themselves attract to the heaviest concentration of calcium. That chemically and anatomically makes sense. However, I do wonder just how much metal is absorbed and if it’s cause for concern.
One of my sulcatas will readily eat cuttle on a regular basis while my other 3 (who are only hatchlings and possibly unaware) haven’t touched cuttlebone.
I wonder where you suggest a good source of limestone? And are you calling it limestone flour because it’s a finely ground powder?

Limestone also has antibacterial properties and although it’s also found in soil, I do wonder if ground limestone is too rich for the gut bacteria of the tortoise because of its antibacterial properties?
I’m not suggesting that it is; simply wondering if there is any study on that element of using it as a sourced calcium supplement. For every positive there’s also a negative so I’m just trying to be critical of all reactionary effects; to be sure that straight limestone in higher, richer bulk is overly portent.
The gut flora of tortoises is a very delicate balance.
I do like the suggestion that limestone is mined from a source that is preindustrial for the purity, non-chemical aspect! I just want to wire on the side of caution when and consider all avenues on new sources of supplementantion.

If we are going to say that egg shells are no longer viable as a sole source; one could also argue that microwaving the egg (so that it becomes hard boiled) also subjects the calcium to radiation, thus damaging much of the integrity of the calcium and other nutrients normally found in the eggshell.

Not at all arguing the case study. Just highlighting some other thoughts on the subject of calcium.
I too, am only curious and want the best options for my beloved shelled family!
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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I completely understand the concern for cuttlefish bone absorbing heavy metals from the sea. Even in the bones of cattle, metals are found. The body stores excess heavy metals in bone because the metals themselves attract to the heaviest concentration of calcium. That chemically and anatomically makes sense. However, I do wonder just how much metal is absorbed and if it’s cause for concern.
One of my sulcatas will readily eat cuttle on a regular basis while my other 3 (who are only hatchlings and possibly unaware) haven’t touched cuttlebone.
I wonder where you suggest a good source of limestone? And are you calling it limestone flour because it’s a finely ground powder?

Limestone also has antibacterial properties and although it’s also found in soil, I do wonder if ground limestone is too rich for the gut bacteria of the tortoise because of its antibacterial properties?
I’m not suggesting that it is; simply wondering if there is any study on that element of using it as a sourced calcium supplement. For every positive there’s also a negative so I’m just trying to be critical of all reactionary effects; to be sure that straight limestone in higher, richer bulk is overly portent.
The gut flora of tortoises is a very delicate balance.
I do like the suggestion that limestone is mined from a source that is preindustrial for the purity, non-chemical aspect! I just want to wire on the side of caution when and consider all avenues on new sources of supplementantion.

If we are going to say that egg shells are no longer viable as a sole source; one could also argue that microwaving the egg (so that it becomes hard boiled) also subjects the calcium to radiation, thus damaging much of the integrity of the calcium and other nutrients normally found in the eggshell.

Not at all arguing the case study. Just highlighting some other thoughts on the subject of calcium.
I too, am only curious and want the best options for my beloved shelled family!

I said over a year ago a lot of what your saying . That’s why I went to non- microwaving eggshells . Now I use a mix of eggshells and carbonate calcium.
And we ask about giving city water to torts . I like what your saying ! [emoji217]
 

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I have a big jar of Zoo Med Repticalcium (calcium carbonate). Just now I went and dipped my finger in the jar and tasted it, and there's no taste or smell. Cuttlebone does smell pretty fishy. Do you sell the limestone at Kapidolo Farms?
Of course cuttlebone smells fishy, it is the cuttlefish inner skeleton! And I have some of that Repticalcium too, but it does not help their beaks stay nice and trimmed as well as providing calcium like the eggshell and the cuttlebone. Hmmmmmm. What about chalk? I used to eat it. As a child. A very young child.
 

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@Will "I still do chop up some chicken egg shell with hard-boiled egg, when I don't 'hard-boil' in the microwave, without shell" this got me scared, lol. I microwave my egg and then grind in the raw shell membrane removed unless I've made hard boiled eggs for the house which is rare. I would think the raw shell was more dense in nutrients since there is no high heat to kill vitamins off. Is feeding the raw shell an issue?
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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@Will "I still do chop up some chicken egg shell with hard-boiled egg, when I don't 'hard-boil' in the microwave, without shell" this got me scared, lol. I microwave my egg and then grind in the raw shell membrane removed unless I've made hard boiled eggs for the house which is rare. I would think the raw shell was more dense in nutrients since there is no high heat to kill vitamins off. Is feeding the raw shell an issue?

I been grinding my eggshell into a powder and feeding it to the torts uncooked for 18years .
But eggshell takes longer to get in the torts system so now I mix it with calcium carbonate witch gets into the torts system faster . So it’s like a time capsule!
 

TammyJ

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Is there any conclusion here? Is it OK to keep giving the tortoises cuttlebone? I think that if someone has been doing it for ages with no apparent ill effect, they are going to just keep on doing it, as why change what seems to be working? It seems to me also that if you pick everything apart, you will always find some reason not to keep using it....but on the other hand, why keep drinking the Kool-aid when there are still alternatives available?
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Is there any conclusion here? Is it OK to keep giving the tortoises cuttlebone? I think that if someone has been doing it for ages with no apparent ill effect, they are going to just keep on doing it, as why change what seems to be working? It seems to me also that if you pick everything apart, you will always find some reason not to keep using it....but on the other hand, why keep drinking the Kool-aid when there are still alternatives available?
Hi TammyJ, i dont know. What to say regarding a conclusion. I think we all discuss and offer points of view to creat a learning environment - the great thing about TFO!

I have made a desicion on my husbandry practice after some trial and error regarding cuttlebone, calcium carbonate, etc (limestone flour).

A couple of points to clarify some poor writting on my past posts in this thread,

1) i use microwave 'hardboiled egg' by placing a tablespoon of water and two eggs in a microwave safe dish. No shell, beat them, a cook on high for two minutes. Then chopp that up and mix in w/ salad. These egg shells are discarded in a compost bin.

I also use boiled whole egg (in the shell) chopped up and mixed in with the salad.

I tend to go the microwave route most often.

2) it is my understanding that most cuttle bone that is used for birds is collected from beaches, cleaned somehow, and the sold.

If so then that cuttlebone would have 'pollutants' in them, perhaps mostly washed off in the cleaning process? The second paper i posted in this thread suggest that while living, cuttle fish effectively discriminate in their ingestion of other sealife against absorbing metal pollutants. Their are many non-metal pollutants as well.

Medical grade cuttle bone is cleaned of trace protein, and 'screened' for contaminates, but that's not what is sold for birds - which is what we all use.

Limestone flour is harvested 'fossil rock' created before modern industrial pollutants. I found sources acceptable fot human 'organic' grade food processing - so that's where i decided to go.

******

I had used ZooMed brand calcium carbonate w/o D3 for most salad prep, and decided to get it at a better price.

Calcium carbonate from limestone flour is less $$ than cuttle bone, maybe also less convenient based on how you use it, maybe more convinent.

That one leopard that got carried away eating the cuttlebone lead to my seeking something that works better for me. Even in high humidity enclosures, at worst theyvtrack it everywhere and it gets washed through and out when i flood the enclosures. They all do come over and take a mouthful off and on. It dose solidify into little lumps as CowboyKen has said, they the eat at that, but in this case, the little lumps resuspend into flour, they don't keep the small rock like shape.

I encourage more debate on this topic, please post more ideas and experience.
 

TammyJ

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The topic has broadened from its title which is just about cuttlebone, to debating on other sources of calcium. I could say that a tortoise living in its natural habitat "in the wild" may or may not always get its requirement of calcium from what it finds to eat. But we will provide our kept tortoises with what we know they need so they should not then be deprived. If I give my redfoots all the best recommended food including opuntia, should they need a calcium supplement at all?
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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The topic has broadened from its title which is just about cuttlebone, to debating on other sources of calcium. I could say that a tortoise living in its natural habitat "in the wild" may or may not always get its requirement of calcium from what it finds to eat. But we will provide our kept tortoises with what we know they need so they should not then be deprived. If I give my redfoots all the best recommended food including opuntia, should they need a calcium supplement at all?

That’s a hard question to answer. A mixed diet should be good some people would say . But then the tort would have a growth spert it may need more calcium or during egg laying season the females may need more calcium. And as you’ve seen in my posts I don’t want to use cuddle bone. But I’m open to other things !
 

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I give my redfoots hard boiled egg crushed with the shell. That is after boiling the egg in a pot of water on the stove top. They love it as long as they don't get it more often than once per week. But does boiling the shell cut down on the calcium content? Is the raw egg shell better?
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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I Assume that some of the minerals are leached into the water . That’s why I use uncooked egg shells .
 

TammyJ

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I imagine that they will eat bird eggs that fall to the ground out of their nests, in the wild, so of course, there they are getting raw egg "on the half shell".
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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I imagine that they will eat bird eggs that fall to the ground out of their nests, in the wild, so of course, there they are getting raw egg "on the half shell".

And lizard eggs in the wild . And I been doing it for 18years . I just lately been mixing the powdered eggshells with calcium carbonate Cause it diegests faster then egg shell powder . Like a time capsule.
 

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So can I give them crushed calcium tablets like what humans take? Is that just calcium carbonate? Is Repti-calcium different?
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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So can I give them crushed calcium tablets like what humans take? Is that just calcium carbonate? Is Repti-calcium different?

Tammy
You sound like a nice lady ! Why are you looking to spend more money? Why not look for food grade calcium carbonate you will find it on the Internet and after breakfast let your eggshells dry out for 24 hours and put them through a coffee grinder and then feed the mix of the two to your torts . Buy the way I have 51 adult torts . [emoji2]
 

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Interesting Comment on this issue provided by an Amazon customer “JQ” regarding Calcium Carbonate/Limestone Powder being sold for poultry or reptiles.

  • There are more pure forms available for pet reptiles if you search for "precipitated calcium carbonate". While raw ground limestone such as this is probably healthier than no supplementation, the long-term difference between the 97% (industrial/animal grade) vs 100% purity (precipitated, food/pharma grade) will probably add up in the organ health & overall vitality of your pet if you plan on it living more than just a few years, and being as healthy as possible in old age. Even if we assume the 3% of impurities are non-toxic (mostly silica/sand & heavy metals, e.g. lead), it is 3% extra stress on the reptile's digestive system to extract the same amount of necessary nutrition. Perhaps that extra stress could prove deadly if the reptile is sick or old, or could result in weight issues etc over the long term. So yes, buy this if you don't want your pet to die immediately, or you plan on culling it soon anyways (e.g. chickens), but if you want to maximize your pets long-term health & perhaps save on some vet bills later, precipitated calcium carbinate would be a smarter purchase.
  • Also it should be noted that this non-precipitated ground grade is the type used in cheap human calcium supplements, which have been found to lead to dangerous lead accumulation in the elderly. I think the difference is, we should make extra efforts with our "exotic" pets & provide higher quality supplements than we would to ourselves, as unlike humans our pets cannot complain, or seek out medical help, or quit eating the supplement when they feel ill. Also if they get ill there is less chance of a reptile recovering compared to a human as there is less medical research & expertise for reptiles.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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The topic has broadened from its title which is just about cuttlebone, to debating on other sources of calcium. I could say that a tortoise living in its natural habitat "in the wild" may or may not always get its requirement of calcium from what it finds to eat. But we will provide our kept tortoises with what we know they need so they should not then be deprived. If I give my redfoots all the best recommended food including opuntia, should they need a calcium supplement at all?
I think they all take advantage of calcium as a stand alone diet item when possible. Even snails, consumed by many species, have calcium rich shells, maybe that is in part why they eat them?

I offer calcium in the diet without any other supplement once a week, and leave little piles of the limestone flour on the feeding tile. I had used cuttle bone, but since that one leopard may have damaged themself with it. I looked far a new means to allow at-will consumption.
 

ricks45

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My 2 five month sulcatas will eat the Exo terra calcium + D3 like it was crack cocaine. They turn up their noses at Mazuri food, But I can put the calcium on it they act like they cant get enough. I have even dumped a small pile in their food bowl and they will eat and lick up as much as I give them! Will too much calcium hurt them? Or will they stop when they have enough?
 
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