Keeping tortoises in New Zealand

[Stitchpunk]

Hi all!
Tortoises are EXTREMELY rare (and expensive) in New Zealand and I never thought I would get the chance to own one. I think there are only 2 or 3 breeders in the country. However one of the breeders is expecting Greek spur thigh hatchlings at the end of January (midsummer here) and all going well I MAY be able to get a baby from her late April (mid autumn.) At the moment I don't want to pester the breeder with too many questions until I know for certain that I can get one, so I am researching and researching. However I still have a lot of questions because all the information I find seems to be aimed at northern hemisphere keepers.

So, where I live the climate is sub-tropical - humid in summer with temps in the 15-25 Celsius range on average, and down to about 4-14 Celsius in winter. We get occasional frosts in winter, but never snow. Where the breeder lives is a bit more frost prone. She says that she keeps babies indoors till their 2nd summer (putting them outside on nice days) and then shifts them to an outdoor enclosure year round. Thus I'm expecting to need an indoor enclosure for at least the first 9 months. I was looking at getting this: http://www.pet.co.nz/product/small-pet/rabbit-cage/8527

Which measures 120x59x50cm. Does that look sufficient to begin with? It needs to be secure because I have cats. It looks to me like the tray is deep enough to hold a decent amount of substrate. I'm not sure what substrate would be good though - soil/sand mix seems the easiest for me to get but I'll have to carry the cage up and down stairs to put it outside so it needs to be not too heavy. Obviously I'd be using a UV lamp as well.

2nd question - given that I wouldn't be getting the baby till mid-Autumn, would it be a good or bad idea to encourage hibernation in the 1st winter? There's a reptile park in our region that has Greeks and on their website it says that " In their natural range they would spend the Winter months buried in the ground hibernating but at the Reptile Park the temperature does not maintain stable low levels to allow this, however we do house them in boxes of dry leaves for a couple of months away from the worst of the wet weather. They do not feed over this period."

And my 3rd big question is food. Plants that I already have access to are dandelions, red and white clover, roses and hibiscus. I saw that the Tortoise Lady recommends a couple of sedum species that I should be able to get; no luck so far finding a source for opuntias without spines though. That doesn't seem like enough variety though. I'm going to research into what weeds grow here, but most of the names that come up on the food lists are unfamiliar to me. I also would be interested in any recommendations for plants that are good (or bad) to have in the actual indoor enclosure.
Also, saw the Camp Kenan videos on YT and he says that he doesn't feed his tortoises every day, only 2-3 times a week because the diet is already so much more than what they are used to surviving on in the wild. Is that a common practice or do most people feed daily? And would it be a safe practice to adopt with a baby?

Thanks for any info you care to share. I'm way overexcited and getting a bit ahead of myself I know! But I'm always more comfortable about taking on a new pet if do a lot of research in advance

 

[Lyn W]

Hi and welcome! You're very wise to research first so that you can get everything set up ready for the new baby's arrival.
I'm in the UK and only been a tort owner for about 18 months and this website has been invaluable because of the up to date information available from very experienced keepers - some of whom I'm sure will be along soon with great advice for you.
Your climate sounds very similar to that experienced by folk in different parts of the US and the UK. As long as you have access to a decent sized enclosure indoor for cold weather with uvb lamps (not coiled or cfl type) and heat sources such as a ceramic heat emitter thermostats etc, as well as safe outside space for when warm enough to get uvb from the sun you should be fine.
There is a good caresheet for Greeks under the Species Specific section which will tell you all about temps, diet, substrate, humidity and general care. The Beginners Mistakes thread (see link below) will help you avoid pitfalls suffered by others and the Enclosures thread has great ideas.


My tort wasn't a baby when I got him and doesn't hibernate, but I will try to pass on what I have learnt.
I think most people feed daily -especially babies - I was advised to think of the shell as an upturned bowl and give that amount every day. If they eat it all, add more if they leave some, give less. In the winter I have to use grocery store veg which you may have to unless you are good at growing your own food/weeds, but some are better than others and your caresheet will be your guide on best diet.
www.thetortoistable.org.uk is a good guide for tort safe plants for food and enclosures. Spider plants are widely used but if store bought re pot in chemical free soil and allow time for any fertilisers used to grow out.
They also need constant access to fresh water in a shallow dish such as a plant saucer big enough for him to get in and self soak. fancy pet shop dishes are not always safe options.
Sand is not recommended by many as a substrate because if it gets on food it can cause the gut to become impacted and the same for anything with small white bits.
I have seen it advised not to hibernate torts definitely for the first year they are with you - maybe longer for babies but someone else will clarify that.
I'll see if there's anything else in your post I can answer but you will have other responses from old hands like Tom and Yvonne and some of the Greek keepers who will also gladly give you the benefit of their experience.

 

[Lyn W]

Some people do use those cages but I think they have issues with controlling temps and humidity so they have to adapt them and add covers etc so browse the Enclosures thread to see what others use.

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome. You've got a lot of great questions. I'll hit them in order:
1. I prefer to have an indoor enclosure for nights and bad weather and an outdoor enclosure for nicer weather. I would not carry a cage up and down the stairs. There are many way to make a large, covered, safe outdoor enclosure. Using this system, your climate and weather won't matter because you will always have an appropriate safe place to keep your tortoise.
2. You will find that it is difficult to maintain the correct conditions indoors with an open topped enclosure. A closed chamber type of enclosure will make it much easier to maintain whatever temperatures and humidity levels you desire.
3. Temperatures here in my climate fluctuate a lot too. It is not safe to hibernate them outside here. I use a refrigerator to maintain consistently cold and stable temps for all my hibernating species. This keeps them dry and out of the rain, it can't get too cold or too warm, and they are safe from rodents and others predators.
4. I hibernate my babies their first year and every year. Some people prefer to wait one year or even three years. Some people don't ever hibernate them and just keep them up and warm all year. This choice is yours. There is much debate about what is "best" and why.
5. Camp Kenan is NOT the guy to take lessons from. Enjoy his videos if you find them entertaining, but understand that there are people that know more about tortoise diets than him. Also understand that his tortoises live outside in Florida and they "feed" themselves all day every day. Feed your tortoise the right foods every day, or let it graze outside naturally. Skip all the text in this thread. It was written for sulcatas. Just skip to the food list to see all sorts of common plants that you can grow yourself. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/


I typed this up for russians, but care is essentially the same:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

This one will have some useful tips too:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

 

[Stitchpunk]

Thanks for the responses! I'm a little surprised to see the preference for a more enclosed indoor enclosure, just because nearly all of the photos I've seen online seem to be completely open topped - or aquariums, which I'd gathered were TOO enclosed. I will look into it some more obviously I would build an outdoor enclosure as well but I kinda figured that mid Autumn might not be the best time to start doing that, with things cooling down? But it would certainly be easier to house the baby outside as much as possible. Humidity is not likely to be something I can control very much inside - in winter it might be down to 60% or so but in summer here it's usually 80-100%. Possibly not that different from Florida, just not as extreme...we can grow palm trees pretty well here

Thanks for that food list Tom, that helps - now I know which flowers to start planting if I do get a baby! The weeds I need to look into more. I figured the Camp Kenan guy was probably not a recognised expert the videos are entertaining though!

ETA: would orchid bark work as a substrate? I can get that easily here but I'm not so sure about coir. Given our relatively high humidity here I would want a substrate that doesn't hang on to moisture much, or it'll start going moldy.

 

[Tom]

Orchid bark w

Thanks for the responses! I'm a little surprised to see the preference for a more enclosed indoor enclosure, just because nearly all of the photos I've seen online seem to be completely open topped - or aquariums, which I'd gathered were TOO enclosed. I will look into it some more obviously I would build an outdoor enclosure as well but I kinda figured that mid Autumn might not be the best time to start doing that, with things cooling down? But it would certainly be easier to house the baby outside as much as possible. Humidity is not likely to be something I can control very much inside - in winter it might be down to 60% or so but in summer here it's usually 80-100%. Possibly not that different from Florida, just not as extreme...we can grow palm trees pretty well here

Thanks for that food list Tom, that helps - now I know which flowers to start planting if I do get a baby! The weeds I need to look into more. I figured the Camp Kenan guy was probably not a recognised expert the videos are entertaining though!

ETA: would orchid bark work as a substrate? I can get that easily here but I'm not so sure about coir. Given our relatively high humidity here I would want a substrate that doesn't hang on to moisture much, or it'll start going moldy.

Orchid bark will work perfectly.

You will be surprised how low your humidity is in an open topped indoor enclosure. Heaters in winter, AC in summer and the heat lamps all serve to dry things out. Using a closed chamber makes it easy to maintain whatever level of humidity you think is best.

 

[Stitchpunk]

Orchid bark w


Orchid bark will work perfectly.

You will be surprised how low your humidity is in an open topped indoor enclosure. Heaters in winter, AC in summer and the heat lamps all serve to dry things out. Using a closed chamber makes it easy to maintain whatever level of humidity you think is best.

Ah, ok. Not that we have AC, alas! But we do use a heater in winter. The other thing I'm confused about is that a lot of the photos I've seen seem to show enclosures with some clear sides, which I thought was a Bad Thing? I'm wondering now if I should just get one of the really big plastic tubs with a lid....as I said, it needs to be cat-proof. I do have an aquarium with a mesh lid that used to house my mouse, but it's not big enough at 20 gallons. Or a turtle aquarium that comes with the built in ramp and basking platform? Lol this is what I get for wanting a pet that's so rare down here! But your advice is very much appreciated

 

[Tom]

Ah, ok. Not that we have AC, alas! But we do use a heater in winter. The other thing I'm confused about is that a lot of the photos I've seen seem to show enclosures with some clear sides, which I thought was a Bad Thing? I'm wondering now if I should just get one of the really big plastic tubs with a lid....as I said, it needs to be cat-proof. I do have an aquarium with a mesh lid that used to house my mouse, but it's not big enough at 20 gallons. Or a turtle aquarium that comes with the built in ramp and basking platform? Lol this is what I get for wanting a pet that's so rare down here! But your advice is very much appreciated

You've been reading sites with old, out-dated, incorrect info. There is a lot of misinformation and a lot of people who've been following that mis-informations for years. Some of them even get mad when you question their incorrect information.

I and many of the long term tortoise keepers here have been using glass tanks for decades. I've personally started hundreds of baby tortoises of many species in glass tanks. If there was a problem with them wouldn't I have seen it? At least once over all those years?

Glass tanks, or the tubs you mentioned are actually BETTER for the very reasons "they" say they are bad. Decreased air flow? Unless the room air is of the humidity and temperature that you are trying to create in your enclosure, don't you want to reduce the airflow? They say the tortoises are "confused by the glass because they can see out, but can't walk through it." No they are not. Mine sit and look out. They watch me watching them. They wait for me to bring them food and react when they see the food guy coming. All of this is good.

The internet is full of all sorts of non-sense. It will be up to you to discern the good info from the bad. I hope you question what you read, including what I write. Ask me to prove it, or explain why I make my assertions. Make me and everyone else back it up. I'll have no problem doing so.

 

[Stitchpunk]

You've been reading sites with old, out-dated, incorrect info. There is a lot of misinformation and a lot of people who've been following that mis-informations for years. Some of them even get mad when you question their incorrect information.

I and many of the long term tortoise keepers here have been using glass tanks for decades. I've personally started hundreds of baby tortoises of many species in glass tanks. If there was a problem with them wouldn't I have seen it? At least once over all those years?

Glass tanks, or the tubs you mentioned are actually BETTER for the very reasons "they" say they are bad. Decreased air flow? Unless the room air is of the humidity and temperature that you are trying to create in your enclosure, don't you want to reduce the airflow? They say the tortoises are "confused by the glass because they can see out, but can't walk through it." No they are not. Mine sit and look out. They watch me watching them. They wait for me to bring them food and react when they see the food guy coming. All of this is good.

The internet is full of all sorts of non-sense. It will be up to you to discern the good info from the bad. I hope you question what you read, including what I write. Ask me to prove it, or explain why I make my assertions. Make me and everyone else back it up. I'll have no problem doing so.

It's impossible not to question really, partly because there is so much conflicting information online and partly because there is no information specific to New Zealand. I'm going to have to do a bit of experimenting anyway (and if I get confirmation from the breeder then I'll be picking her brains like crazy, especially about food in case there are native species that are suitable. I've been looking at the weeds and only just found out that sow thistle is called puha here and was/is a staple food for the indigenous Maori population. Learning is good!)
financially there is more at stake for me in owning a tortoise than for some of you (I would guess.) a Greek tortoise is going to cost me $850, plus the cost of building enclosures. So while I'm willing to experiment a bit, I'll still be looking to the Internet to help. But that's ok, I've got some experience now in picking out the probably-reliable from the dross due to my penchant for pets that are unusual by local standards!
What you're saying makes sense to me, there wouldn't be so many photos of glass sided enclosures from forums like this one online if they drove tortoises mad. And I'd like glass so I can see in. Re orchid bark, is coarser or finer better do you think? I have an orchid collection so I can get fine or coarse grade from the orchid nursery.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

Instead of buying that manufactured tortoise table, just buy a very large plastic tub. In fact, buy two of them so you don't have to carry it outside. Just set them both up exactly the same and the baby won't know he's in a different tub.

I have a temporary 20 gallon aquarium housing a baby sulcata until I can find someone to adopt him. It's easy to close it off to keep the warm, moist air inside and the cooler house air out. It doesn't look all that "pretty" but it works:



I didn't close off the right side because I'm too lazy to keep uncovering it to add food and water, but if it doesn't stay warm/moist enough inside, I'll close it off too. Most species of baby tortoises hatch out during rainy weather, and then the stay hidden down in the earth or under dense brush, so keeping them moist stands to reason.

Have you read our Greek care sheet? It was written by a very well-known tortoise person, and he is also a member here:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/greek-tortoise-testudo-graeca-care-sheet-overview.87146/

If you want to keep referring back to it, you can find it pinned at the top of our Greek section.

 

[Tom]

It's impossible not to question really, partly because there is so much conflicting information online and partly because there is no information specific to New Zealand. I'm going to have to do a bit of experimenting anyway (and if I get confirmation from the breeder then I'll be picking her brains like crazy, especially about food in case there are native species that are suitable. I've been looking at the weeds and only just found out that sow thistle is called puha here and was/is a staple food for the indigenous Maori population. Learning is good!)
financially there is more at stake for me in owning a tortoise than for some of you (I would guess.) a Greek tortoise is going to cost me $850, plus the cost of building enclosures. So while I'm willing to experiment a bit, I'll still be looking to the Internet to help. But that's ok, I've got some experience now in picking out the probably-reliable from the dross due to my penchant for pets that are unusual by local standards!
What you're saying makes sense to me, there wouldn't be so many photos of glass sided enclosures from forums like this one online if they drove tortoises mad. And I'd like glass so I can see in. Re orchid bark, is coarser or finer better do you think? I have an orchid collection so I can get fine or coarse grade from the orchid nursery.

If I had to categorize new members here, I could fit them into two broad categories:
1. The people who come here, ask for tips and advice, and then argue with whatever we tell them because its not what they want to hear and it means they will have to spend more money, time and effort because they got the wrong info before finding us. They keep asking until they find someone who tells them what they want to hear, because that makes things easier for them.
2. People who come here and genuinely want to learn the best way to care for their animals and don't care if the info they get is "convenient" or not.

You fall squarely into the second category.

Definitely talk to the breeder and learn what you can, but remember that she likely read the same stuff you've been reading and she may still subscribe to some of the old, incorrect stuff. Maybe not, but just keep the concept in mind.

Also, there are people here that spend that much or more and some tortoises species, so we get where you are coming from. We have some species that cost $1000 for a hatchling and Galapagos tortoises are still running $5000 USD for one hatchling...

To finally answer your question: Fine grade orchid bark is the way to go. The coarser stuff is to big and chunky for a baby to be trying to walk around on.

 

[Stitchpunk]

Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

Instead of buying that manufactured tortoise table, just buy a very large plastic tub. In fact, buy two of them so you don't have to carry it outside. Just set them both up exactly the same and the baby won't know he's in a different tub.

I have a temporary 20 gallon aquarium housing a baby sulcata until I can find someone to adopt him. It's easy to close it off to keep the warm, moist air inside and the cooler house air out. It doesn't look all that "pretty" but it works:

View attachment 160471

I didn't close off the right side because I'm too lazy to keep uncovering it to add food and water, but if it doesn't stay warm/moist enough inside, I'll close it off too. Most species of baby tortoises hatch out during rainy weather, and then the stay hidden down in the earth or under dense brush, so keeping them moist stands to reason.

Have you read our Greek care sheet? It was written by a very well-known tortoise person, and he is also a member here:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/greek-tortoise-testudo-graeca-care-sheet-overview.87146/

If you want to keep referring back to it, you can find it pinned at the top of our Greek section.

Thanks! I like the way you think! Plastic tubs will be cheaper for sure. What would you suggest re the lids? The tubs won't be see-through so I'll want to be able to see in the top, but I need to keep the baby protected from the cats..... Mesh screen? Or cut the tub top in half?

 

[Stitchpunk]

If I had to categorize new members here, I could fit them into two broad categories:
1. The people who come here, ask for tips and advice, and then argue with whatever we tell them because its not what they want to hear and it means they will have to spend more money, time and effort because they got the wrong info before finding us. They keep asking until they find someone who tells them what they want to hear, because that makes things easier for them.
2. People who come here and genuinely want to learn the best way to care for their animals and don't care if the info they get is "convenient" or not.

You fall squarely into the second category.

Definitely talk to the breeder and learn what you can, but remember that she likely read the same stuff you've been reading and she may still subscribe to some of the old, incorrect stuff. Maybe not, but just keep the concept in mind.

Also, there are people here that spend that much or more and some tortoises species, so we get where you are coming from. We have some species that cost $1000 for a hatchling and Galapagos tortoises are still running $5000 USD for one hatchling...

To finally answer your question: Fine grade orchid bark is the way to go. The coarser stuff is to big and chunky for a baby to be trying to walk around on.

Fine grade it is I know exactly the sorts of people you mean. Over the years I've owned and researched mice, axolotl and Fire bellied newts, and they all have specialist forums that attract all sorts! I'm seeing a lot of water dragons looking for new homes at the moment - it makes me sad that people would even think of taking on an animal like that without researching how big they grow and how much room they need.

I've always loved tortoises, but even more so since I've had the experience of caring for animals that need live food and all the hassles of trying to keep colonies of insects alive. There's something utterly charming about an animal that eats flowers (amongst other things) with such a look of contentment. I went and looked at the 2016 calendar photos and they made me smile so much.

I'll stop rambling now. Thanks SO much everybody for the advice. Fingers crossed for good news at the end of January....

 

[Yvonne G]

Thanks! I like the way you think! Plastic tubs will be cheaper for sure. What would you suggest re the lids? The tubs won't be see-through so I'll want to be able to see in the top, but I need to keep the baby protected from the cats..... Mesh screen? Or cut the tub top in half?

I made lids for plastic tube out of 1x1's and wire. I'll go get a picture of one of them. Don't use them anymore. Be right back....

 

[Yvonne G]

Please excuse the dirty rug. This is not in my house, but rather in a vacant house on the back of my property that I use for storage. The first one shows the wood frame and plastic mesh. If you plan to put the lights on the screen, you can't use the plastic:


I couldn't find the ones I made using wire, but it was the same size wire as shown above. This is one of my first attempts. All I did for this one was snip the corners so I could fold them down:



I don't cover them anymore. My cat doesn't get inside. Now I cover to keep the warm/moist air in, and I use foil.

 

[Yvonne G]

Of course, if you're looking to make a closed chamber type, you can't use my brilliant design. Some folks cut out circles in the tub's lid, where the light is going to go, and cover the tub with its own lid. This works well for a closed chamber, but it's a pain in the patootie to administer to the inside, food, water, etc.

 

[Stitchpunk]

Of course, if you're looking to make a closed chamber type, you can't use my brilliant design. Some folks cut out circles in the tub's lid, where the light is going to go, and cover the tub with its own lid. This works well for a closed chamber, but it's a pain in the patootie to administer to the inside, food, water, etc.

Thanks, this is exactly what I have for the aquarium my mouse lived in. I'll give it all some thought.

 

[Stitchpunk]

*sigh* there is an 18mo Hermann's for sale for $750 but he's half way across the country and I don't have the $. Patience, Grasshopper...

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

*sigh* there is an 18mo Hermann's for sale for $750 but he's half way across the country and I don't have the $. Patience, Grasshopper...

Do you need a permit to buy Hermann's in NZ or just to sell them?

 

[Stitchpunk]

According to the NZ Herpetological website:

"Tortoises may be subject to CITES - regulations to protect endangered animals. In 1984 it was agreed with the EEC Council to treat three species of Mediterranean tortoise (the Spur-thighed, Hermann's and Marginated Tortoise from Greece) according to Appendix 1 of the Convention for International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES). The Egyptian Tortoise (Testudo kleinmanni) was added to Appendix I in 1994. This meant that these four species were protected and commercial trade strictly prohibited. For the sale, exchange or barter of these protected tortoises by private individuals a license is required."

So it's possible the vendor is acting illegally. I could report it, but whether that would be in the best interests of the tortoise is hard to say. From the photo there is a bit of pyramiding on the shell and from the wording I suspect someone got a pet without doing all their research and is bored with him. He could end up going to someone just as uninformed.... Or to someone who'll care for him properly. If I had the funds and a way to get there (it's a 6.5 hour trip and I don't drive) I would because he's old enough that I could put him straight into an outdoor enclosure.
This is the link if anyone is curious
https://trademe.co.nz/1009510221
Hermann's Tortoise