Maggie, it's very interesting the way you keep Bob! Frankly, I am speechless!
About your climate- yes, I know quite well US climate, but it is not that cold in winter there, less extreme. Redmond or Madras, by instance, are not that mild and humid, but arid and extreme: hot in summer or bitter cold in winter. So, if Bob goes out, I expect him to do that down to -2...-4*C; can he take a walk when lower?? It's mind-blowing for me!
About the terms used: yes, correctly should be "brumation", but I was used to "hibernation". They wanted to separate the winter sleep in mammalian and poikilotherm ways, wich is proper.
The occasional failures in non-brumating temperate climate Testudo were clearly related to that factor, since when resuming brumation, success appeared. I know about such reports, but I know as well that many breeders have satisfying results without brumation. That's why I wish to find more about the second way of keeping them, because they never fail to breed if brumate, but that is obviously explained by their adaptations and conditioning. Non-brumating and success- that's an interesting aspect! It remains to find also the rate of success, but again the infos are so isolated, that no clear conclusions can be drawn from them.
But even so, it shows clearly that brumation HAS a role, since most failures are connected to the lack of it, when other factors (good food and maintenance) are the same. Plus, the described cases- maybe some even from this forum?- when a quite shy and not very eager tortoise managed to mate, and no result (no brumation), compared to the raw, brutal reproductive drive, followed by success, when finally brumate. These are facts. Even non-brumating radicals usually say "brumation is useless and potentially dangerous (??), and it's not recommended unless you are planning to breed the tortoises". Then, at least SOMETHING goes better if brumating! QED!
After all, the best "scientific evidence" and "proof" is offered to all of us by... Mother Nature! She has done all the experiments and statistics that can be done, and much better than we, poor humans, can ever do. That's why she placed some tortoises in temperate climates, and other ones in warm climates!
Why Horsfieldis do not go down in the warm valleys in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan? Well... for Pakistan, lower, warmer regions should be G. elegans country, and it's there because Nature decided so. Why avoiding a better place, with almost perpetual summer- wich non-brumating adepts offer to their animals??
Why T. ibera relatives remain in the cold plateaus in Iran, Afghanistan, instead of descending to warmer areas?
Questions to be answered... or already answered: because on longterm, the perpetual summer is not what they have evolved for. Sooner or later, the temperate tortoise population would go extinct, because brumation becamed a biological need- or will evolve in order to became another species, and in paralel with losing the brumating capacity, it will look different too. Well, that happened already: we have now each climate with its tortoises. Mother Nature solved that discussion with herself- about brumating and non-brumating species- longtime ago! She just put each one in the proper climate!
We have the opportunity to keep: not the extinct ones LOL, not the tropical species (or, well, maybe tropical species too, but coming from the tropics, considered and treated as tropical, wich is correct), but the TEMPERATE species, wich we still insist to consider and treat as tropicals- wich is WRONG, isn't it, after all?
GB: right now I saw your post- interesting as usual, but I will analyse and reply tomorrow. Good opinion exchange here!
See you!
About your climate- yes, I know quite well US climate, but it is not that cold in winter there, less extreme. Redmond or Madras, by instance, are not that mild and humid, but arid and extreme: hot in summer or bitter cold in winter. So, if Bob goes out, I expect him to do that down to -2...-4*C; can he take a walk when lower?? It's mind-blowing for me!
About the terms used: yes, correctly should be "brumation", but I was used to "hibernation". They wanted to separate the winter sleep in mammalian and poikilotherm ways, wich is proper.
The occasional failures in non-brumating temperate climate Testudo were clearly related to that factor, since when resuming brumation, success appeared. I know about such reports, but I know as well that many breeders have satisfying results without brumation. That's why I wish to find more about the second way of keeping them, because they never fail to breed if brumate, but that is obviously explained by their adaptations and conditioning. Non-brumating and success- that's an interesting aspect! It remains to find also the rate of success, but again the infos are so isolated, that no clear conclusions can be drawn from them.
But even so, it shows clearly that brumation HAS a role, since most failures are connected to the lack of it, when other factors (good food and maintenance) are the same. Plus, the described cases- maybe some even from this forum?- when a quite shy and not very eager tortoise managed to mate, and no result (no brumation), compared to the raw, brutal reproductive drive, followed by success, when finally brumate. These are facts. Even non-brumating radicals usually say "brumation is useless and potentially dangerous (??), and it's not recommended unless you are planning to breed the tortoises". Then, at least SOMETHING goes better if brumating! QED!
After all, the best "scientific evidence" and "proof" is offered to all of us by... Mother Nature! She has done all the experiments and statistics that can be done, and much better than we, poor humans, can ever do. That's why she placed some tortoises in temperate climates, and other ones in warm climates!
Why Horsfieldis do not go down in the warm valleys in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan? Well... for Pakistan, lower, warmer regions should be G. elegans country, and it's there because Nature decided so. Why avoiding a better place, with almost perpetual summer- wich non-brumating adepts offer to their animals??
Why T. ibera relatives remain in the cold plateaus in Iran, Afghanistan, instead of descending to warmer areas?
Questions to be answered... or already answered: because on longterm, the perpetual summer is not what they have evolved for. Sooner or later, the temperate tortoise population would go extinct, because brumation becamed a biological need- or will evolve in order to became another species, and in paralel with losing the brumating capacity, it will look different too. Well, that happened already: we have now each climate with its tortoises. Mother Nature solved that discussion with herself- about brumating and non-brumating species- longtime ago! She just put each one in the proper climate!
We have the opportunity to keep: not the extinct ones LOL, not the tropical species (or, well, maybe tropical species too, but coming from the tropics, considered and treated as tropical, wich is correct), but the TEMPERATE species, wich we still insist to consider and treat as tropicals- wich is WRONG, isn't it, after all?
GB: right now I saw your post- interesting as usual, but I will analyse and reply tomorrow. Good opinion exchange here!
See you!
