keep hermanns indoors or outdoors for winter

[johnnysd]

hello all, i have a 4 year old male eastern hermanns. this will be the first winter i have him. my question is..since i've been keeping him outdoors all this time, can i continue to keep him outdoors in the winter. or should i bring him inside to his indoor enclosure at night and bring him out during the day where its a little warmer. i've read that hermanns don't necessarily need to hibernate. and i'd rather not hibernate him because i'm afraid i have no idea what i'm doing.
i live in southern california where it averages about 70-ish in the day and mid 60's at night. i want to keep electricity costs down since i've also got a 2 year old sulcata.

 

[johnnysd]

wow, 42 views and no response..so either nobody on the forum has any idea as to what i'm asking or maybe i'm wording it wrong and nobody understands the question. so let me try to phrase it at little better.
i live in southern california where daytime temps in the winter are in the mid to high 70's. and night time temps are in the low 60's. i have a 4 year old hermanns for about a year. he has been spending his days in his outdoor enclosure. i want to know if it is ok to keep my tortoise outside during the winter and then bring him indoors at night when temps drop. i don't want to hibernate him and i've read that you don't have to hibernate the tortoise.
so all of you tortoise experts please help as this is my first winter with the tortoise and i don't want anything to go wrong

 

[pdrobber]

You don't have to hibernate your tort if you don't want to. I'd suggest having a large enough and well thought out functional indoor enclosure, not just a place to sleep at night. There might be days it's too cold to go out, inclement weather, you aren't around to bring the tort out/in, etc. You can get lots of ideas here for building/putting together a tortoise table. Make sure substrate, lighting, and heating are all addressed properly(look around at past threads here on the forum for advice)

 

[Lulu]

I live in San Diego, and there's always a pretty good rainy patch in the middle of winter. My plan for my marginated is a full inside enclosure with UV and basking lights, with the expectation that he is still going to spend a lot of winter days outside. The weather here is pretty good except for that relatively brief period of chilly AND wet nights. A nice inside enclosure will give you the option to decide on a day by day basis.

 

[ascott]

Helloooooo , sorry my son has been on the laptop all day playing Mindcraft.....so have not been really on the forum to much...

So, you do not have to brumate your herms...especially since you are still in the first year of caring for him....now, I would say that you can brumate him indoors or out in the future...as long as you can get him prep'd for brumation.

I live in Souther California as well, high desert, and I know last night it was 48 degrees here, I wish we kept 60 at night here during the winter, if we did I would leave my CDTs out during the winter as well, but with the weird rain and cold the last two years and with the La Nina returning in August means we will likely have a lot of cold temps again this winter....so, I brumate my guys indoors in their own individual sleeping boxes which are then placed into a closet in a converted part of our house so they have dark, dry, quiet and cool but not freezing temps, also very handy to keep an eye on them in the event I need to pull them out of their rest.....

How old is your Herms?
.

---

duuuuh, just realized you already said how old your Herms is...and I would also not brumate a 4 year old, maybe around 5ish....IMHO

I know that while hatchlings will brumate in the wild, we can not match natural conditions enough to know what the delicate hatchlings and youngins require to survive....again, IMHO

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I keep my Easterns and boxies inside during the late fall/winter/early spring months, but take them outside, to roam the front porch, when the sun is out and it's around 70 or warmer (even during the winter we have warm days, here and there).

Never in nearly 40 years have I ever hibernated/brumated any of my tortoises, and they're all perfectly healthy.

Living in Souther Ca., I'd do the same...keep inside at night/during rainy periods, but let 'em get sunlight whenever feasible...a few hours a week, or more, on average, along w/ plenty of calcium-rich cactus pads'll keep 'em in fine health.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Hi all of you guys in warm temperate or subtropical locations!!

Why do you bother to take them indoors?? Your climates are usually similar or even milder than climates in hermanni habitats!
You can offer to a Boettgeri a fridge hibernation (since they came from the Balkans, most of them from real winters areas, record lows close to -30*C) if you want to save time for yourself, conditioning your tortoise etc., or letting them in their outdoors enclosures- as in southern Greece, where they have an interrupted hibernation- but NOT bringing them indoors!! It is totally wrong! Even in the coldest events that you could have, they will act accordingly and having no problem, but indoors they will have a true tropical tortoise regime- that is what I find wrong. No temp swings, abnormal warm nights- TROPICAL!!! Well, this is too different from what they see, even in their warmest habitats.
Even humid events pose no threat, maybe only to north-African or Middle East "Graeca Complex" members, bot not for European or Turkish tortoises. For boettgeri, it is rather unusual to be kept dry, but if you want to be sure, provide them with a rain cover, but keep the soil/litter/compost a little humid.
Enjoy your climates and let them to enjoy too!

PS: I want to open a topic with useful links, esp. with habitat infos- in some, you will see Bulgarian boettgeri and ibera emerging from hibernation covered in ... MUD. The situation is the same in almost all Boettgeri areal, except some drier areal from Greece, but having wet winters too.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Hi all of you guys in warm temperate or subtropical locations!!

Why do you bother to take them indoors?? Your climates are usually similar or even milder than climates in hermanni habitats!
You can offer to a Boettgeri a fridge hibernation (since they came from the Balkans, most of them from real winters areas, record lows close to -30*C) if you want to save time for yourself, conditioning your tortoise etc., or letting them in their outdoors enclosures- as in southern Greece, where they have an interrupted hibernation- but NOT bringing them indoors!! It is totally wrong! Even in the coldest events that you could have, they will act accordingly and having no problem, but indoors they will have a true tropical tortoise regime- that is what I find wrong. No temp swings, abnormal warm nights- TROPICAL!!! Well, this is too different from what they see, even in their warmest habitats.
Even humid events pose no threat, maybe only to north-African or Middle East "Graeca Complex" members, bot not for European or Turkish tortoises. For boettgeri, it is rather unusual to be kept dry, but if you want to be sure, provide them with a rain cover, but keep the soil/litter/compost a little humid.
Enjoy your climates and let them to enjoy too!

PS: I want to open a topic with useful links, esp. with habitat infos- in some, you will see Bulgarian boettgeri and ibera emerging from hibernation covered in ... MUD. The situation is the same in almost all Boettgeri areal, except some drier areal from Greece, but having wet winters too.

Yes, you can do this, but there's no compelling reason why you must...in about 40 years of tortoise-keeping, not a single one of mine has shown any problem w/ not brumating, and every year we read of a few pet tortoises who did not survive brumation, so why risk their lives when there's no need?

Brumation is simply a reaction to adverse weather conditions, and tortoises who never experience said adverse weather conditions just keep on eating and other tortoise activities.

 

[kimber_lee_314]

I'm in So Cal too. My Hermann's stay outside until they hibernate. I do have some DTs that I don't hibernate (due to illness issues) and i let them outside in the mornings (any day that is above 60) and then bring them in when I get home. I leave them under the lights so they get a total of 12 hours of light every day - then I shut it off. That pretty much keeps them eating and cruising the yard.) If it's below 60 I keep them inside with the lights on. Hope that was helpful.

Where in So Cal are you?

 

[GBtortoises]

"Yes, you can do this, but there's no compelling reason why you must...in about 40 years of tortoise-keeping, not a single one of mine has shown any problem w/ not brumating, and every year we read of a few pet tortoises who did not survive brumation, so why risk their lives when there's no need?

Brumation is simply a reaction to adverse weather conditions, and tortoises who never experience said adverse weather conditions just keep on eating and other tortoise activities."

It can't be said any better than that! As he clearly states: "there's is no reason why you must". Thank you Terry.

 

[Lulu]

Hi Vinnie,

I actually agree. My husband has russians that have brumated outside for a few years with no trouble at all here in Southern California. The marginated is new to us and loved by our daughter, so he gets to spend the winter indoors and awake for the foreseeable future.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Lulu, in SoCal, not even North-African or Middle East tortoises will have problems, it is perfect for them! About Russians- it is a breeder in Minnesota, keeping them outdoors year-round. I think that even the ones coming from the mildest climate will be OK in S-Colorado, while the harshest habitat is... SW-Mongolia. If you look after climatic data for Khovd, it will look like a place where humans- or tortoises- cannot live. A balmy -50*C as absolute low, and the averages too are very "encouraging".

Yes, you can do this, but there's no compelling reason why you must...in about 40 years of tortoise-keeping, not a single one of mine has shown any problem w/ not brumating, and every year we read of a few pet tortoises who did not survive brumation, so why risk their lives when there's no need?

Brumation is simply a reaction to adverse weather conditions, and tortoises who never experience said adverse weather conditions just keep on eating and other tortoise activities.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-keep-hermanns-indoors-or-outdoors-for-winter#ixzz1dW4kgfZn

Terry, I don't have so many years as a human as you have experience, but your reply may as well be my reply to you: yes, they could overwinter/not brumating without problems, but it is no compelling reason to do that either- except poor shape or illness. If tortoises die in brumation, it is about mistakes- and those did not account in our discussion. If done correctly, no problem! Beginners can lose tortoises not only during brumation, but I see that is easier in that interval.
OTOH, you live in an area with short, mild winters, and the period indoors is not enough to produce damage- even if no winter, the perpetual summer includes real southern latitude sun for much more time.
Not seeing bad consequences doesn't means that these are not happening! Maybe their lifespan will be drastically shortened- and it's logic, that happens to most poikilotherms- but the hobby is not old enough to even report centenar captive tortoises, not to mention comparing brumating ones vs. non-brumating. Still no info on that field.

Of course your regime is perfect for non-hibernating/interrupted hibernating tortoises of the Graeca complex from southern Spain, N-Africa or Middle East, or let's say even Hermanni from Sicily or S-Pelloponese. Some may brumate for shortened periods, but it's not OK to prolonge hibernation in a way too different manner from what they have in habitat, even no ill effects occur- the same principle I have against non-brumating an animal from a definitely temperate location!

Tropical zones have their own tortoises, and they should be kept, naturally, without brumation- maybe estivation; I talk here only about the Eurasian Testudo, your CDT and... that's pretty all, species that are clearly adapted to do that.
A Sulcata or a Redfoot will never be able to do that. These are the TROPICALS, and THESE should not be subjected to cold, because even if they will burrow to escape the "adverse conditions", their systems are not adapted to do that, they totally lack those mechanisms.

The statement that brumation is "simply a reaction to adverse weather conditions" is a platitude, and wrong, if taken only from one side- of course ALL adaptations are reactions to something, the only difference in the way we understand that being the fact that nature had no reason to maintain useless mechanisms, once built and perfected. If they CAN hibernate, they SHOULD hibernate. Even if they seem not affected by the lack of brumation- that's the difference between our views.

As EJ said about tortoises, in his argumentation, that "removing the adversity will make them to resume activity", so that's pretty all about their "need" to hibernate- is it necessary that a tortoise should sleep even in summer-like conditions, to make the non-brumation adepts admit that "yes, that one is a truly hibernating species, no matter the temperatures"? Of course not, that will never happen!!
They will naturally resume feeding/basking etc., because they will... react to "adverse conditions", don't they? And those ARE adverse conditions, if the animal insist to sleep, because exhaustion and dehidration, then death, will occur- if not!

So, these are not solid arguments, in my opinion. Not contesting the outstanding knowledge of you, Terry, or EJ, or other experts amongst non/brumating adepts, in the tortoise field, but even the Masters can be wrong once.

My point: if living in the North, hibernate the ones coming from a temperate climate (outdoors or indoor ); if living in the South, not necessarily put them in the fridge just to fit their areal winter conditions, but at least you can let them outdoors without worry, since the warmest parts of their areals are usually colder than your locations. About excessive rainfall- yes, that can be a problem, but that's another story.

Of course none of you will change what it worked so well till now, if eventually will agree with my opinion, but we can stimulate our brains a little in a theoretical discussion- in my case, I was surely challenged by your discussions, and tried to explain what I think about as best as i could. Hope it made sense.

I keep only temperate climate species, so...
I brumate all the tortoises in good shape.
I overwinter the ones received too late in the season, if not knowing their previous conditions- usually indoors, and the obviously debile ones.
I brumate even hatchlings- this is my first time!- and theoretically all should go well, since they are natives. They fattened up a few grams, then lost them during pre-hibernating phase, so still a good weight. They went underground about 3 weeks ago, then re-emerging in sunny days, and last week digged them up carefully and put in winter accomodation.

Today I digged up all my adult tortoises from outdoor enclosures- they finally went underground without re-emerging- then weigh them and put in their winter accomodations.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Lulu, in SoCal, not even North-African or Middle East tortoises will have problems, it is perfect for them! About Russians- it is a breeder in Minnesota, keeping them outdoors year-round. I think that even the ones coming from the mildest climate will be OK in S-Colorado, while the harshest habitat is... SW-Mongolia. If you look after climatic data for Khovd, it will look like a place where humans- or tortoises- cannot live. A balmy -50*C as absolute low, and the averages too are very "encouraging".

Yes, you can do this, but there's no compelling reason why you must...in about 40 years of tortoise-keeping, not a single one of mine has shown any problem w/ not brumating, and every year we read of a few pet tortoises who did not survive brumation, so why risk their lives when there's no need?

Brumation is simply a reaction to adverse weather conditions, and tortoises who never experience said adverse weather conditions just keep on eating and other tortoise activities.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-keep-hermanns-indoors-or-outdoors-for-winter#ixzz1dW4kgfZn

Terry, I don't have so many years as a human as you have experience, but your reply may as well be my reply to you: yes, they could overwinter/not brumating without problems, but it is no compelling reason to do that either- except poor shape or illness. If tortoises die in brumation, it is about mistakes- and those did not account in our discussion. If done correctly, no problem! Beginners can lose tortoises not only during brumation, but I see that is easier in that interval.
OTOH, you live in an area with short, mild winters, and the period indoors is not enough to produce damage- even if no winter, the perpetual summer includes real southern latitude sun for much more time.
Not seeing bad consequences doesn't means that these are not happening! Maybe their lifespan will be drastically shortened- and it's logic, that happens to most poikilotherms- but the hobby is not old enough to even report centenar captive tortoises, not to mention comparing brumating ones vs. non-brumating. Still no info on that field.

Of course your regime is perfect for non-hibernating/interrupted hibernating tortoises of the Graeca complex from southern Spain, N-Africa or Middle East, or let's say even Hermanni from Sicily or S-Pelloponese. Some may brumate for shortened periods, but it's not OK to prolonge hibernation in a way too different manner from what they have in habitat, even no ill effects occur- the same principle I have against non-brumating an animal from a definitely temperate location!

Tropical zones have their own tortoises, and they should be kept, naturally, without brumation- maybe estivation; I talk here only about the Eurasian Testudo, your CDT and... that's pretty all, species that are clearly adapted to do that.
A Sulcata or a Redfoot will never be able to do that. These are the TROPICALS, and THESE should not be subjected to cold, because even if they will burrow to escape the "adverse conditions", their systems are not adapted to do that, they totally lack those mechanisms.

The statement that brumation is "simply a reaction to adverse weather conditions" is a platitude, and wrong, if taken only from one side- of course ALL adaptations are reactions to something, the only difference in the way we understand that being the fact that nature had no reason to maintain useless mechanisms, once built and perfected. If they CAN hibernate, they SHOULD hibernate. Even if they seem not affected by the lack of brumation- that's the difference between our views.

As EJ said about tortoises, in his argumentation, that "removing the adversity will make them to resume activity", so that's pretty all about their "need" to hibernate- is it necessary that a tortoise should sleep even in summer-like conditions, to make the non-brumation adepts admit that "yes, that one is a truly hibernating species, no matter the temperatures"? Of course not, that will never happen!!
They will naturally resume feeding/basking etc., because they will... react to "adverse conditions", don't they? And those ARE adverse conditions, if the animal insist to sleep, because exhaustion and dehidration, then death, will occur- if not!

So, these are not solid arguments, in my opinion. Not contesting the outstanding knowledge of you, Terry, or EJ, or other experts amongst non/brumating adepts, in the tortoise field, but even the Masters can be wrong once.

My point: if living in the North, hibernate the ones coming from a temperate climate (outdoors or indoor ); if living in the South, not necessarily put them in the fridge just to fit their areal winter conditions, but at least you can let them outdoors without worry, since the warmest parts of their areals are usually colder than your locations. About excessive rainfall- yes, that can be a problem, but that's another story.

Of course none of you will change what it worked so well till now, if eventually will agree with my opinion, but we can stimulate our brains a little in a theoretical discussion- in my case, I was surely challenged by your discussions, and tried to explain what I think about as best as i could. Hope it made sense.

I keep only temperate climate species, so...
I brumate all the tortoises in good shape.
I overwinter the ones received too late in the season, if not knowing their previous conditions- usually indoors, and the obviously debile ones.
I brumate even hatchlings- this is my first time!- and theoretically all should go well, since they are natives. They fattened up a few grams, then lost them during pre-hibernating phase, so still a good weight. They went underground about 3 weeks ago, then re-emerging in sunny days, and last week digged them up carefully and put in winter accomodation.

Today I digged up all my adult tortoises from outdoor enclosures- they finally went underground without re-emerging- then weigh them and put in their winter accomodations.

Respectfully disagree...there is no compelling reason to force a "domesticated" tortoise to brumate, other than (A) not wanting to bother with taking care of it for a few months or (B) a mistaken idea that it is possible, or even desirable, to reproduce "wild" conditions in captivity.

These are no longer wild tortoises, and you can't reproduce wild conditions, no matter how hard you want to. At best you can merely approximate them...

And, consider this: those "wild" conditions you want to imitate include the tortoise being dug up by hungry predators (including poor folks) for food, being killed by farmers (who consider them pests) and being used as road fill (a tragedy that has happened to too many European tortoises ever since the selling of them for the pet trade is now outlawed in some countries)...

Enjoy your pets tortoises year-round...

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I have Hermanni, Sulcata, Russians and numerous box turtles and none of them hibernate. I have never hibernated any of my animals, and as a consequence of that practice, I have never lost one in hibernation. The way I was taught, hibernation is a deep sleep, used under adverse conditions, brumation is a light sleep where the animal will get up and eat then go back to that light sleep. However, I have heard too many stories about animals dying during hibernation. Why, gentlemen, would I want to take that chance with beloved pets when it is not necessary? I live in Oregon in the Willamette Vally where it rains continually. It is so easy to set my animals up inside and I have a large shed for my 102 pound Sulcata and a tort table in that same shed for my Hermanni. They have enough room to walk off their pent up energy and are kept warm enough, electricity not being that expensive here. I say hibernation is not necessary, I get to enjoy the company of my pets all winter long. My big Sulcata even enjoys going out in the snow!

 

[Lulu]

Terry,

Your points are good ones, but your last full paragraph is all straw man. Obviously, no one is suggesting any such things.

Some folks have reported more success with breeding horsefields after a period of brumation. That would suggest that brumation may have some effect on the physiology of some tortoises. We're allowing ours to brumate for that reason. We actually thought about overwintering them this year, but we decided to see what a "hands-off" approach would do for our first year of attempted breeding. I generally agree with your arguments, but I think they are overstated and I think that Vinnie also has some interesting points.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Hi all!

Renee,
I agree with you- not necessarily where you give me credit , but about the good points of each Terry and Maggie. Yes, I even said that even they will eventually agree too, they will be reticent to change what worked well for them all these years.

Maggie,

Even it's ok for them- apparently- did you manage to breed them? For sulcata it's ok, a tropical species. As for winter rainfall, yes, it would be risky to let them fend for themselves outdoors, but brumating them in a protected enclosure, or fridge, it would be fine. Enjoying them- see below. Sulcata in the snow??? I would be affraid to do that. But in your location, it is not that cold in winter, so I think it is above freezing, even with snow on the ground, when you take it on a snow walk .

Terry,
Yes, you are partly correct- about taking care of them indoors- I would be not to happy to worry about room, lights, feeding etc., but even if i could, I would still brumate them; second, yes, I try to replicate natural conditions, but not just for the thing itself, but because I strongly consider that beneficial and natural for them. But it is not a wrong idea, trying to replicate natural conditions!! It is the key to succes in keeping any living thing in captivity!

About enjoying them: oh yes, it is a lot of fun! It is very interesting to see how they prepare to go underground; see them emerging in mild days, before deciding that serious cold will arrive, and they should go deep quickly- and they seem to know well when (!); my blood almost froze when I found them slepping in the open, not in their shelters, when light morning frost occured- again, they knew better, since no damage occured (!); the awakening, and their spring-mojo in full power; all their strategies and ways that helped them survive and thrive in temperate climates- ALL those things are fun and interesting, so I enjoy too my tortoises! (see the "Useful Links" thread that I opened, it's fascinating!)

Approximating natural conditions- yes, that's the point. As much as possible, but it is not about respecting/replicating all the factors. Just the essential ones- and respecting theyr annual cycle of activity/rest is one of the most important. In may case, having natives 200km east of Bucharest, it is somewhat easy. Their habitat is almost equally cold, a little drier, but, the most important difference is that Bucharest lays in a featurless plain, while in Dobrogea there are rolling prairies, hills, forests, rocky grounds, sunny slopes- all these together in close proximity.
The only reason I took them to brumate under control is the fear of hungry rodents/other pests. Excess moisture can be easy solved, by amount of protection offered, as for my winterhardy cacti- a foil-tunnel, greenhouse etc.

But that doesn't mean that you should strive to meet ALL the factors- it would be asier to move in tortoise area, but not even then it's relevant, since true tortoise habitat may be at 1 km distance.
North Texas is glorious for many species, esp. the ibera group, exactly as it is. Pictures look very similar to Romanian and Bulgarian Dobrogea, or Anatolian landscapes. But any temperate species will be happy outdoors there!

Not last, it is the importance of brumation for their health. Well, even you way may not be wrong in practice- but still no info available that it isn't, yet!- I can be twice assured that respecting their biological program, including deep winter sleep, I am even closer to their natural cycle.

The fact that, sometimes, they are not very successful in mating when overwintered, but it is an obvious improvement after brumation, should ring a bell to temperate-species indoor overwintering adepts. The health of the reproductive system cannot be regarded as being independent of the general health of the animal, even if apparently no ill effects occur. Nobody studied that, far as I know. But it is surely a very different hormonal scheme in those two situations.
They evolved to do so. They CAN, while others CANNOT. There are adaptations that, in time, became biological NEEDS. It is a fact, not to be compared to the simple superficial constatation that "they can be active year-round without problem". Again, I refer to the lack of interest/succes in reproduction. It is not ok at all, even if that problem occur only in isolate cases- it just shows clearly that brumation became what is called a "biological need".

I want to know about your success with breeding- after such a long life with them, you should have a lot of hints and knowing many of their secrets; not many breeders are too successful without brumating their animals, and I am really interested in your methods.
In my case, is simple: good natural weeds, outdoors, brumation- and all works almost by itself.
Mortality in not-brumating hatchlings is one of my interest points- French breeders found, after making a study, that not brumating from the first winter leads to app. 25% mortality in the following 2-3 years, while under 5% if brumate even as hatchlings. And another interesting find: full brumation being the optima, and no brumation the worse, the length of brumation was invers proportional with the mortality level. Even a shortened brumation (4-8 weeks) lead to problems and deaths!
French breeders have a good name, because they have native tortoises too, and had the resources to study them quite well. Their tortoise vets are full of real knowledge, a big difference from many vets from everywhere, in general.
Well, we have native tortoises here, but... no resources, no motivation and no interest in studying the Testudo patology, wich resulted in vast... ignorance, with few blessed exceptions. The rest- they are usually very good in other animals, even exotics, they're not dumb at all.

If you accept to offer some of your secrets, and you choose another thread for that, please let me know announcing that here, I will then search for your messages and find it.

Thanks to all!
BTW, have you visited that GeaChelonia link posted by me in a new thread, "Useful Links"? It's awesome, in my opinion! Bulgarians are way ahead of us, and I am glad that at least they have contributed to interesting observations to my hunger of tortoise-info.

All the best!

 

[Neltharion]

Not seeing bad consequences doesn't means that these are not happening! Maybe their lifespan will be drastically shortened- and it's logic, that happens to most poikilotherms- but the hobby is not old enough to even report centenar captive tortoises, not to mention comparing brumating ones vs. non-brumating. Still no info on that field.

This is one point that I found interesting. I had thought about it myself at different points in time. Is there any scientific evidence to support or refute this?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

No Vinnie, to answer your question, I have made no attempt to breed any of my animals.

You are wrong about the freezing level here. It stays below freezing for most of the winter. My Sulcata, Bob, is 102 pounds and 14 years old so he is old enough and big enough to make up his own mind as to it being too cold for him or not. He goes out into the snow if it's below freezing or above. He knows how long he can stay out and when he starts to get cold he goes back inside. He has a 250 watt UVB/basking lamp and he uses that to the best of his advantage. He is an intelligent being and I don't believe he needs me to control his daily habitats. His 20'X12' shed has a 'doggie door' for him and I open it up first thing every morning. Then it is up to him to decide if he's going out or not. I don't spoil him and I don't try and tell him how to live. He is very smart and he knows when he is getting cold and needs to go back inside. Or he may not go out at all. That is his decision. I think most keepers make their animals live in a way that humans think they should live. I let Bob live the way he wants.

Brumation should not be confused with hibernation; when mammals hibernate, they are actually asleep; when reptiles brumate, they are less active, and their metabolism slows down so they just do not need to eat as often. Reptiles can often go through the whole winter without eating. Brumation is triggered by cold weather, lack of heat, and the decrease in the amount of hours of daylight in the winter.

Humans seem to think that reptiles need to hibernate in order to have a successful breeding season. There is nothing thats shows that is true.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Neltharion, other than the old observations in short-lived poikilotherms, as fish. Their lifespan can be studied, a scientist may be able to do that in his life , even for some of the longeviv species.
But if a brumating tortoise can reach 150 or more, and a non-brumating one let's say that can reach only 80, I don't see such an experiment done till now, and even if started right now, poor scientist should let his disciples continue the experiment. Well, hoping that they will be equally motivated in that field. Also, singular research, without a collaboration of more research centers, may not be relevant and always contestable for that reason.
So, I will be PRO-brumation, just from my tendency to respect their natural cycle, regardless our arguments: natural ways cannot be wrong, but ours, depending on our subjective views at one moment or another (like our will to see them active year-round), can. And if it is to mention concrete, proved evidence, I would account only two:
- the huge difference in hatchling and young mortality of non-brumating animals/shortened brumation vs. fulltime brumating ones;
- the occasional problems (I don't know the rate) of low fertility in non-brumating tortoises, improved by letting them brumate.

Maybe there are more unexplored aspects, maybe there are some research done, but I don't know. Anyway, for me its enough. Definitely brumating temperate tortoises.
Some even do a 3-4 months brumation even for some North-African and Middle East animals, without any problem, but with all beneficies. There is a T. graeca "terrestris" - Golden Greeks in NC- the kingdom of rainfall- and he keeps 2 groups- one indoors, one outdoors; outdoor team is ok, even with all the moisture, partially burried and even with snow on carapaces sometimes! Well, quite daring in my opinion- not the cold, but the moisture- but it is done and it is fine till now.

Much more reports about North-Africans from the Graeca complex- in France and Britain, far as I know. They seem to be ok again, even continuous brumation of such length are not encountered in habitat.

Of course, some of them- as T. kleinmanni- never hibernate, just hide for a few days, resume activity, and so on.

 

[GBtortoises]

In a word-no. There is no scientific evidence to support either belief (as far as I know)-to brumate or to not brumate.

Consider this: There could possibly be a chance that by not brumating one might take some years off the total life of a tortoise. Although there is no proof of that whatsoever. But, brumating a tortoise in captivity and having something go wrong either through keeper inexperience or by the hand of mother nature may surely shorten the life of a tortoise!

Despite what some may think and say, it's not usually as simple as waiting for cold weather and expecting the tortoise to go to sleep for 4-6 months.

The fact that this hobby "is not old enough" can be used as a point for either side of the discussion. While there may not be proof of captive born tortoises living to be 100 years old, there is also no proof that they don't. Keep in mind while this hobby has been in full swing since the late 50's & 60's. Large scale captive breeding, with only a handful of exceptions, has only been taking place since the late 80's at best. There are very few captive born tortoises over 25 years old currently in captivity in the U.S. Before everyone jumps on this let me clarify that yes they some do exist. But as a whole there are still far more wild caught and younger captive borns out there. To use a wild caught tortoise as an example of total lifespan would be totally inaccurate without knowing it's birth year for certain.

This subject can go round and round but what it really comes down to is how confident and comfortable a keeper is with their own experience and whether they want to risk brumating their tortoise-because make no mistake-each time it's done it is a risk. Human knowledge and effort aside, it is still and always will be a gamble that one is taking with mother nature.

Some that know me may ask how I can take this hypocritical stance on brumation knowing that I have several Eastern Hermann's and Russian tortoises that have been brumating "naturally" outdoors here, some for about 20 years. It's easy, I didn't do anything to get them to do it, they do so each year on their own and I just add some extra insulation. However, that only represents about 1/3 of my total number of Northern Mediterranean tortoises. None of the others have ever attempted to hibernate on their own here and if they were left to dig in on their own by the time the weather got cold here they would have froze to death by now. So one would have to assume that by those lack of actions, there is something missing here at my place for them to be triggered "naturally" into brumating. As some might suggest I should just leave them out to fend for themselves I guess. I personally can't take that risk. It should also be noted that all of the tortoises that do brumate here on their own are 100% wild caught. Not a single captive born tortoise in the bunch.