Is This Pyramiding?

[turtlewurx]

I've been kinda busy lately & It's been maybe 2 weeks since I really took a look at the boys. When I did, I freaked out a little bit. I've enclosed some photos. Is this the start of pyramiding? ... If so, I don't understand why/how. They've got the right UVA/UVB bulb. On weekends, when I'm home to watch them, I put 'em in a kiddie pool outside so they can get actual sunlight. I soak them about twice a week. I give them calcium with D3. I try to keep the humidity above average in the table. ...Am I being paranoid, or am I doing something wrong?

Here's close ups of 3 of the 4 guys. Donnie's picture was blurred.

 

[ascott]

Yes. There are edited a bit elevated to the growth lines....buuuuut no need to fret...it appears ever so slight....your environmental factors do play a part ....diet and hydration do play a part....speed of growth matters...I would give em a soak each day and would spray their food with water to also increase their hydration.....what type of humidity do you offer...drench entire enclosure? Humid hides?

I believe if you also increase your sun exposure time they will benefit....

 

[turtlewurx]

Yes. There are edited a bit elevated to the growth lines....buuuuut no need to fret...it appears ever so slight....your environmental factors do play a part ....diet and hydration do play a part....speed of growth matters...I would give em a soak each day and would spray their food with water to also increase their hydration.....what type of humidity do you offer...drench entire enclosure? Humid hides?

I believe if you also increase your sun exposure time they will benefit....

They've been growing like weeds. I've had them... Maybe 2 months, I guess. They've just about tripled in size. (I know Sullies grow fast, but WOW!)

I was feeding them about a cup of chopped greens a day (Mustard, Turnip, Collard, etc. on a rotation)...Along with the live Bermuda grass growing in their table. However a few weeks in, I noticed they always seemed to be scrounging for food, so I upped it to a cup of greens in the morning, & a cup when I got home in the evening.

I try to give them minced timothy hay every few days, & I wet down the food then.

For Humidity, I have a 4'x4' table with about 3" of soil (& a drain) and live grass. I soak the entire table with about a gallon of water every 4 to 5 days.

Other than soaking daily, what else can I do to stop they pyramiding?

..& btw, thanks for the help!!!!
JD

 

[ascott]

Do you offer two cups of produce a day for each of them? Is the hay part of that two cups?

 

[turtlewurx]

Do you offer two cups of produce a day for each of them? Is the hay part of that two cups?

No. It's roughly 2 cups a day for all four. (Plus, I admit, I cheat a bit. If I notice they've cleaned off the food bowl, I'll usually cut up some more greens & give it to them.)

To be honest, basically, I have a 6" terra cotta dish, that I pile about 4" high with chopped greens, & I clean it off & refill it whenever they start running low. I know it's best to stay on a strict diet for them, with strict feeding times, but I keep thinking that they're growing & eating everything I give them, so they must be hungry, so I feed them more whenever the food bowl's low.

The hay is on top of their normal food. (Though they usually do their best to eat around it.)

Should I be more strict with their diet to stop the pyramiding, or do you think it's that they need more moisture?

(I do keep another terra cotta dish in their table with about 1/2" of water -that I change twice a day- in it, so they can soak whenever they want to... But they only get in on rare occasions.)

Other than mandatory soaking, what else can I do? I want healthy, happy torts.

 

[wellington]

You mentioned a tort table. If the table is open top, you may not really be getting a good humidity. Cover 1/2 to 3/4 of the table. It will help hold in humidity. I would also soak them every day. With the proper humidity, 80% at least, make sure your temps, even nite temps do not go below 80-85. Have you read Tom's threads? They are listed below in my post, by my signature, read them if you haven't, for good info for raising healthy smooth Sulcata's.

 

[Yvonne G]

Well! (says she with hands on hips and right foot tapping on the ground)...if you've been too busy for US, then its obvious you've been too busy for your tortoises too, J.D. What a terrible case of pyramiding...almost the worst I've ever seen...NOT!!!

Just make sure you are keeping them humid, and hydrated. It looks like its starting, but you can certainly nip it in the bud.

 

[ascott]

Lol....well I am going to cause a rise with sharing here with you what "I" believe...disclaimer; I am not saying I know everything....I am not saying I am right and others are wrong, just sharing my beliefs)

I believe rapid growth in a tortoise can be a factor in pyramiding. I also believe that a captive tortoise should have daily food offerings (food offerings meaning food I bring and deliver to them--not grazing) but I believe the offerings should not be in excess ....excess to me would be food offerings over and above their entire shell size...and I do not believe it is beneficial to the growing tort to have multiple substantial food offerings....I believe that their shell just simply can not keep up with their appetite....and here is why I believe this (again, refer to my disclaimer)

A tortoise in the wild would have its needs ideally met...heat...uv rays..humidity (above ground for forest areas and underground for arid area species....diet....there is a balance that happens naturally due to the tortoise taking advantage of all its resources....now when a tort is captive their natural environment no longer is present....we do our best to replicate but no way can do this exact....so some of our replicas may be better in some categories than in others...and with every one of our downfalls the tortoise has to figure a way to counter that....so sometimes when we have a tortoise appear to have been fine for years and then suddenly have ailments it indeed is not anything sudden....it is just progressive....so our best defense to our categoric failures is to set up the best out door areas as possible and have indoor enclosures as their secondary retreat for bad weather and such....

I believe that humidity is very important....consumption of moisture is essential along with access to humidity but not a completely saturated environment....I also believe sunlight is the best drug for the proper operation of a tortoise...they have to have it--how much of course would depend in species of tort.....diet is unnerving important as well as amount of food offerings (remember I mean food I bring and offer as food
offering) their shell is a bone and in order for bone to grow strong and solid it must not be stressed...and a tort is an eating machine that evolution has created to survive in the wild ....so a tort is hard wired to eat as much as possible in anticipation for the lean times of the season....well in captivity it is our responsibility to make sure every day is not the pig out day as this creates one our downfalls in husbandry, in my opinion, and creates a rapidly growing tortoise which forces the shell to grow rapidly and it simply is not designed that way.....

Now...I am simply sharing what I believe and offer up as food for thought and in no way share so you believe I am telling you what to do....there are lots of folks that raise torts smooth and it is not done 100% based on use of one necessary category ...

 

[Tom]

Soaking twice a week is not enough. Every day for at least the first six months. They aren't going to drop dead if you skip a day now and then, but try for every day.

Humid hide. Very important, especially in an open topped table. A real plastic tub of some sort. Not a half log with some moss tucked in it.

Do they have drinking water? They should.

"Above average humidity" doesn't tell me enough. If its an open topped table in any sort of normal house, its not enough humidity to prevent pyramiding.

Shell spraying. At least 3-4 times a day. I think more is better. this will help keep the substrate damp and humidify the air too.

Spray the food with water too. That will get more hydration into them.

A couple of points that should be emphasized:
1. With all this moisture and dampness, they must not get cold at night. I keep mine around 80. Never had a single one get sick.
2. This is not a permanent thing. This is just to get them started right for the first 6-12 months or so. Once they are around 6-8" you can relax with all this quite a bit. The first few weeks or months is when the pattern for smooth, or pyramided, growth is established.

---

Angela, you are a wonderful person, and I love that you are very considerate and offer your opinions with a great disclaimer. I'm not saying you are right or wrong either. There is a lot of room for discussion and some good points in your posts, BUT....

How many sulcata hatchlings have you raised and what were the results?

I stumbled around in the dark for nearly 20 years trying to figure out what works and what doesn't, and with all that trial and LOTS of error, I have discovered what DOES work. Not theories, speculation, or hypothesis based on wild observations. Facts. Got the cold hard evidence to prove it.

The things I outlined above WILL grow a smooth sulcata tortoise. Its not just my opinion, it has been proven hundreds of times in the last few years.

 

[turtlewurx]

You mentioned a tort table. If the table is open top, you may not really be getting a good humidity. Cover 1/2 to 3/4 of the table. It will help hold in humidity. I would also soak them every day. With the proper humidity, 80% at least, make sure your temps, even nite temps do not go below 80-85. Have you read Tom's threads? They are listed below in my post, by my signature, read them if you haven't, for good info for raising healthy smooth Sulcata's.

It's an open table, but I should be able to build a cover for it in a day or so.

My temps are between 78 (Night) & 95 (Directly under heat lamp). I've got a
Hygrometer on order, but don't know the actual percentage at the moment.

I'll check out the threads. Thanks!

---

Well! (says she with hands on hips and right foot tapping on the ground)...if you've been too busy for US, then its obvious you've been too busy for your tortoises too, J.D. What a terrible case of pyramiding...almost the worst I've ever seen...NOT!!!

Just make sure you are keeping them humid, and hydrated. It looks like its starting, but you can certainly nip it in the bud.

Heh. Yeah. Sorry about that. Self Employment doesn't exactly lend itself to a lot of free time.

However, I am now armed with some good info, so it's time to head home, & hydrate the boys some more.

JD

---

Soaking twice a week is not enough. Every day for at least the first six months. They aren't going to drop dead if you skip a day now and then, but try for every day.

Humid hide. Very important, especially in an open topped table. A real plastic tub of some sort. Not a half log with some moss tucked in it.

Do they have drinking water? They should.

"Above average humidity" doesn't tell me enough. If its an open topped table in any sort of normal house, its not enough humidity to prevent pyramiding.

Shell spraying. At least 3-4 times a day. I think more is better. this will help keep the substrate damp and humidify the air too.

Spray the food with water too. That will get more hydration into them.

A couple of points that should be emphasized:
1. With all this moisture and dampness, they must not get cold at night. I keep mine around 80. Never had a single one get sick.
2. This is not a permanent thing. This is just to get them started right for the first 6-12 months or so. Once they are around 6-8" you can relax with all this quite a bit. The first few weeks or months is when the pattern for smooth, or pyramided, growth is established.

---

Angela, you are a wonderful person, and I love that you are very considerate and offer your opinions with a great disclaimer. I'm not saying you are right or wrong either. There is a lot of room for discussion and some good points in your posts, BUT....

How many sulcata hatchlings have you raised and what were the results?

I stumbled around in the dark for nearly 20 years trying to figure out what works and what doesn't, and with all that trial and LOTS of error, I have discovered what DOES work. Not theories, speculation, or hypothesis based on wild observations. Facts. Got the cold hard evidence to prove it.

The things I outlined above WILL grow a smooth sulcata tortoise. Its not just my opinion, it has been proven hundreds of times in the last few years.

---

I'll be switching do daily soaks.

Plastic tub hide. Not a problem. Any suggestions on what I should stuff it with to hold the humidity?

It's a 4'x4' open top table. I'll be building a top for it over the next day or so.

Shell Spraying: I did not think of that.

I'll start spraying their food as well.

The temps in the table never go below 78.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

 

[Tortoise Princess]

HI Guys. I'm new here and is planning to buy a suclata tort here in the Philippines. I'm been doing a lot of research before buying one. Here's a pic of a sulcata yearling being sold to me. I have attached a picture for your scrutiny. Is there pyramiding??

Thanks

 

[Tom]

HI Guys. I'm new here and is planning to buy a suclata tort here in the Philippines. I'm been doing a lot of research before buying one. Here's a pic of a sulcata yearling being sold to me. I have attached a picture for your scrutiny. Is there pyramiding??

Thanks

Not really. That one is pretty darn good. Welcome to the forum.

 

[Melly-n-shorty]

Plastic tub hide. Not a problem. Any suggestions on what I should stuff it with to hold the humidity?

I switched my hide about 6 months after i got my tortoise... boy did it make a big difference. I personally use coconut coir and sphangnum moss. you can see the difference in my growth thread "shorty's growth over time" the first updates you can see he has some pyramiding. the last update i just did you can see he has started to smooth out. the damp humid environment works wonders!

 

[Tortoise Princess]

Thanks guys.

The owner tells me he mists the shell twice everyday.

I'm excited to be part of this forum.

 

[turtlewurx]

Okay, now this is a bit odd. I got them some plastic hides. (Plastic buckets, actually. I cut them down to about 5" tall, & then cut an opening in them. Filled them with coconut fiber, & soaked the whole thing down) However, the boys don't seem that interested in using them. Every now & then one will go in there, but for the most part, they just hang around outside, or go into one o' their other "hides" (One likes to stay under low hanging leaves of a plant, one digs a pit in the corner, one squeezes between two walls, etc.)

Should I remove all the other hides, so that they'll use the new ones?

 

[Tom]

I find sulcatas usually need around two weeks to get used to anything new. I would "train" them by putting them in there after lights out, every night for a couple of weeks. If needed you can block them in there at night for a few days, and just see how it goes. Sometimes, they just don't like what we build for them...

 

[turtlewurx]

I find sulcatas usually need around two weeks to get used to anything new. I would "train" them by putting them in there after lights out, every night for a couple of weeks. If needed you can block them in there at night for a few days, and just see how it goes. Sometimes, they just don't like what we build for them...

Excellent suggestions! Thank you!