Is there really an answer/solution to this problem?

[TylerStewart]

I also think Tom hit the nail right on the head. I don't see the point of trying to put a ban (which will never be enforced) on a problem that can not be fixed. If turtles are already in the wild in ponds, what's the point of stopping people from owning them? If one gets out, is something going to change? They will never weed a species out of a lake or pond. If they want to reduce numbers, they can allow people to go in and catch/sell/eat/play with all the RES they are able to catch. Anyone that thinks the government is ever going to do anything right is mistaken, particularly in these types of situations where common sense is needed. They generally don't do anything if it doesn't somehow create a tax (income) for them, even if they can't afford to enforce it right away. They don't care about native turtles.

 

[pinpin]

This topic was discussed with a lot of heat in the amphibian forum as well. What do you do about non-native species in sensitive areas--it really isn't possible to go in and eliminate a foreign species simply because you can't find every last bullfrog. They only need two to repopulate. D: D: D:

Bullfrogs are a nightmare in California--it is such an invasive species. They have devastated nature preserves where I once found hundreds of tree frogs as a kid, but are now just full of bullfrogs.

While they've already invaded, there's certainly no benefit to fuel their numbers by allowing continued irresponsible dumping. The common practice is to buy bullfrog tadpoles (shops, online, etc.), watch them develop, then release the froglets into local ponds "to a better home." Common sense is often contradictory to best practice--most people wouldn't throw a dog away at the dumpster, but they find it perfectly fine to put a non-native turtle or frog into the woods.

You could talk yourself blue about a huge number of devastating transmittable diseases that could be spread to the wild population (chytrid coming to mind), but whether it's a combination of good intentions and laziness, or something else, it's very common practice still.

Yvonne has a good point about not banning, but having education, a high fine, and some enforcement supported by those fines. That is, you should be able to own pit bulls/bullfrogs/RES/ferret etc., but if anyone is caught releasing these animals into the wild, accidentally or intentionally, a huge fine of $500-$1K should be levied against them. Even if sporadically enforced (if you just catch one or two)--this provides motivation to not be so lazy about dumping animals. Have pet shops post these notices next to the animals.

This places the responsibility (and choice) directly on the owner--i.e., you are free to own animals BUT you can't just let it loose when you tire of it! The responsible owners will be able to keep the animals they like without the government interfering, and the irresponsible ones--well, hopefully they will be deterrred from impulse pet purchases!

 

[terryo]

There is a saw mill where I live that had a big sign...PLEASE DON'T LEAVE YOUR UNWANTED PETS HERE...$500.00 fine. About two months after Easter, the duck and chicken population there increased enormously. We still see some white rabbits running around by the pond there. Did anyone get a fine, or even see them drop them off? No. There would have to be Security Guards posted 24/7 at every pond in the country for the law to be properly enforced. That's not going to happen. No matter what the law says...people will break it and do what they want. IMO, there is no solution to this problem.

 

[OurZoo]

This is what I love about this forum - we can all agree to disagree on a subject and then tomorrow sign back on and help someone else out with a tortoise/turtle problem! Yea! Us!

Now to my orignal question:
Is there REALLY an answer to the problem of abandoned pet RES? I've read all the posts and there are some really excellent thoughts, ideas, and beliefs - so, just thinking out loud, here's mine:

Education: Someone has to be willing to learn and accept the lessons we try to teach. Now that's a long hard fight!

Banning: Be careful what you wish for - today your neighbors RES, tomorrow MY Sulcatas and CaDT . . . not damn likely!

Enforcement: I don't know about where you all live, but in California ferrets are illegal - go into any pet shop around and you will find a very large selection of cages, toys, food stuff, and just about anything your illegal ferret's heart desires. Can you say Non-Enforcement?

$$$$$: Hit them in the pocketbook. Where ever there is a dollar to be made, even if its on the back of a little 2" cute as a button turtle, in his plastic bowl, with the palm tree (do they still make those?) somebody is going to do it! You may shut him down today, but he'll set up shop tomorrow, somewhere else.

It is a vicious cycle - even if you put a chink in the circle, after all the education, banning, & enforcement there are still the hundreds/thousands of abandoned turtles in the waterways reproducing like crazy. So, to answer the question of answers or solutions to the problem . . . probably not, huh?

 

[dmmj]

To be fair it is illegal to sell ferrets and own them in california, not sell their supplies.

 

[Kristina]

To be fair it is illegal to sell ferrets and own them in california, not sell their supplies.

True - but if ferrets are illegal, who in CA needs the supplies Or are they using the ferret supplies for guinea pigs instead

It's like marijuana being illegal, and yet paraphernalia being for sale. You and I both know the people buying expensive glass pipes are NOT using them for tobacco...

 

[terryo]

You are absolutely right Sandy.
Ferrets are illegal here in NY too, so you can hop over the bridge to NJ...10 min. away...and get one. Even on NY Craig's list they sell them. There is always someone looking to get rid of them.
The girl across the street from me used to have two.
There's just no end, and no solution....sad, but very true.

 

[dolfanjack]

I just watch a program on animal planet that quoted the govn't spending millions of dollars to aradicate snakehead fish. Florida has invading fish, snakes, monkeys, lizard not to mention invasive plants. In Oregon it's bullfrogs and largemouth bass (both introduced on purpose for human consumption) causing the decline of western pond turtles. Invasive RES's are the least of our problems.

 

[Madkins007]

Mark, your talk is the kind of insidious crap that is bringing this once great country to its knees. You think its a government granted privilege to own a pet turtle? What?!! Are you crazy? Ever heard of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If its not in the constitution, there isn't supposed to be a law against it. There is nothing in the constitution about pet turtles. This government is supposed to be of the people, by the people and for the people. The people want turtles. Its that simple. If you think there is a terrible RES invasion problem, then feel free to go out and eradicate them with all your spare time. Start an eradication awareness program. Start a turtle soup club. But leave MY personal property alone!!! When MY RES gets out into the local pond, then you can talk to me about responsible pet ownership and banning me from having that species.

If the government spent half the time and resources on fixing the problem (removing nuisance animals) instead of instituting more draconian laws, harassing innocent citezens and investigating small timers in Chinatown, there wouldn't be a problem to discuss.

Let me just be clear. The government does NOT know what's best for us. The government does NOT have our best interest in mind and the government is so crippled and corrupt that it can't fix anything anymore. Ever been to the DMV?

You do realize you contradicted yourself here, right? You said "This government is supposed to be of the people, by the people and for the people" and "The government does NOT know what's best for us. The government does NOT have our best interest in mind and the government is so crippled and corrupt that it can't fix anything anymore. "

Which is it? Are WE the government and the laws, etc. a reflection of our cumulative wishes, or is the government a behemoth that is a failed evil?

The reality, of course, is that the government is flawed, but nonetheless a useful tool. The DMV is not bad here at all- pop in, fill out the form, pay the $, get out in less than 20 minutes most of the time. The DMV, of course, is a county issue when a national ban would be federal- but even the federal government gets things right at least sometimes.

Bans by themselves are not the total answer and I never said they were- there has to be interest and enforcement. There has to be a clear advantage to the citizens to support the program- a bounty, a profit motive, a clear health hazard, etc. Bans DO, however, give the government the ability to bite when we need to.

You said "You think its a government granted privilege to own a pet turtle?"

Yes, I do. In Omaha, there was a list of legal pets. If your pet was not on it, you could not own it. I would bet there are similar policies where you live that limit what you can have as a pet in your community. Do any of your neighbors have horses, chickens, wolves, bears, cheetahs, monkeys, etc.? The government ALREADY TELLS US WHAT WE CAN AND CANNOT KEEP in most places.

You said "Mark, your talk is the kind of insidious crap that is bringing this once great country to its knees."

If a discussion on an obscure forum of the legality/morality of keeping an invasive species as a pet is going to bring America to it's knees, I would humbly suggest we lost it a long time ago. Open, peaceful discussion of ideas is what is supposed to strengthen the US. Besides- I have NO political authority in CA, so what danger is there in my sharing my thoughts? Arnold sure isn't reading this and thinking it is a good idea.

You said "Ever heard of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If its not in the constitution, there isn't supposed to be a law against it."

1.) 'Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' is from the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.

2.) Whaaaa???? There are billions of laws on the federal level alone that are not in the Constitution. Import codes on papaya, the 4" regulation for turtle sales, income tax, transportation laws, endangered animals, computer crimes, etc. I am not sure where you got this idea, but it is not based on fact.



I am confused how a hypothetical discussion of dealing with a real problem became a political diatribe against me personally. It hurts me that you felt it necessary to dig out emotionally charged phrases rather than continue the discussion. >sniff, sniff<

If anyone felt I was attacking them, I apologize, such was not my intention- I just enjoy a lively debate.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I like the idea of bountys but doubt states can afford it. A better solution would be for someone to come up with some really good recipes for them. Maybe something like turtle helper. Recipes for cats might be good too. Kidding but only slightly.

The same deal w/ the excessive amount of Burmese pythons in Southern Florida...harvest both species (humanely) and put 'em to use.

There are a lot of tasty recipes for both, in both Chinese/Thai and Cajun restaurants.











Smothered Turtle Cajun Style

2 lb Turtle steaks
1 Salt
1 Ground black pepper
2 lg Sweet onions
1 lg Sweet pepper
4 md Tomatoes
3 Bay leaves
1 Clove garlic, crushed
1 c Mushrooms
2 Lemons


Trim turtle steaks into 1 1/2-inch squares, season well with salt and pepper, squeeze lemons over meat and let stand awhile. Add plenty of chopped onion, sweet pepper, chopped, 4 tomatoes cut into eighths, 3 bay leaves, crushed garlic clove and mushrooms. Moisten well with stock made by boiling salted turtle trimmings and smother very slowly in a tightly covered skillet until turtle is tender. Serve with big mounds of rice.

Thai Spicy Turtle

Ingredients 1/8 lb snap peas
¼ lb turtle meat
1 tbsp fish sauce
1 tbsp sugar
1 tbsp dry shrimps
1 chilli
3 lime leaves
1 tbsp Thai red curry paste

How to make Thai spicy turtle with sugar snap peas:

Take a wok and add 1 tbsp of oil. Add red curry paste. Stir till cooked. Add the dry shrimps, fish sauce and sugar. Stir for 10 seconds. Add the turtle meat. Cook for 2 minutes. Add 1 tbsp of water. Stir. Add all the remaining ingredients and stir for 1 minute. Serve.

 

[Jacqui]

For those whom can stand the thought of eating turtles, stop reading this post now.
In response to Terry Allen Hall's post...
What is the difference between dressed weight and their weight in life? How much ends up being waste? Anybody have even a good rough idea?

Sorry to anybody those questions offended. Just got to wondering after the above post.

 

[ChiKat]

even if its on the back of a little 2" cute as a button turtle, in his plastic bowl, with the palm tree (do they still make those?)

Yes, my roommate bought one when she purchased her tiny RES from Alabama (after giving away her other turtle because it got "too big")
But don't worry- it has since been upgraded to a 5 gallon tank

And um, were the turtle recipes really necessary?

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

For those whom can stand the thought of eating turtles, stop reading this post now.
In response to Terry Allen Hall's post...
What is the difference between dressed weight and their weight in life? How much ends up being waste? Anybody have even a good rough idea?

Sorry to anybody those questions offended. Just got to wondering after the above post.

Likely it'll vary by the species...I know that we once dressed out a 35# common snapper and only got (maybe) 12# of meat...the rest was bones, shell and "innards" (offal).

And I, too, sincerely apologize to any vegans/others who might find the idea of eating turtles offensive/off-putting. We Native Americans believe the animals give us the gifts of their meat/hides/etc. and we honor and thank them for their sacrefice.

 

[Madkins007]

Eating tasty, but troublesome, animals is a useful way to deal with over-populations. Admittedly it is not going to work for everyone and it, by itself, will never solve the problem.

Kudzu, for example, is supposed to actually be rather tasty (so I have heard)- but we will never eat our way out of that mess.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Eating tasty, but troublesome, animals is a useful way to deal with over-populations. Admittedly it is not going to work for everyone and it, by itself, will never solve the problem.

Kudzu, for example, is supposed to actually be rather tasty (so I have heard)- but we will never eat our way out of that mess.

Absolute agreement...and what other solutions is there? Can't release them, can't find homes for that many...all that leaves is humanely putting them down, but what to do, then?

Land-fill?

Grind up for fertilizer/other product?

Might as well use 'em in a socially responsible way, right?

Out our way, folks once thought emus would make 'em rich, but when the emus grew too numerous and the market dried up, most were simply dumped and now they're becoming a nuisance, just like the feral hogs have been for even longer...otoh, our local food bank/soup kitchen for the less-fortunate will take every emu and/or hawg we hunters can shoot and tun 'em into nourishment for those who relie on such establishments just to get by...better than piling the carcasses up and burning them, as is done in some other places.

Why not RES-burgers. steaks, sausage, too?

As for kudzu, there's a lady who hires our goatherd, once a month, to be set loose in her kudzu-infested pasture...doubt we'll ever get all of it, but our 62 do keep it under reasonable control, and a few of her neighbors are inquiring about renting them, too...might just become a side-line business for my recently retired wife and it currently pays for the goats' upkeep and vet visits!

Think what a dozen adult sulcatas could do in a kudzu-choked pasture!

 

[DeanS]

Over in Whitter Narrows (Legg Lake to the locals), I have seen more than one RES...it's just too easy to dump unwanted turtles.