Is there a weight/size/age chart for an Indian Star Tortoise?

[William Smith]

Hi, we have a 4 year old Indian Star tortoise who is currently 235 grams, and measures about 4" in length. A few years ago I had found a chart online which gave the average size and weight of an indian star tortoise for their age, but I'm unable to find it now. I just want to make sure that he is growing as expected.

He's housed in a 4ft vivarium, and the ambient temperature is around 35c or 95F (I know some people don't like vivariums, but we live in the UK where it's fairly cold so this is the best way for us to keep the enviroment warm) He's walking around, eating and drinking as he should. we put calcium on his food every 2-3 days, and overall he seems to be totally fine and happy, but i noticed that on the bottom of his shell, near his front and back legs (I think it's the Gular and Anal scutes?) the shell is starting to bend downwards towards the ground. It's still solid and not wobbly or soft or anything so I think this is a normal growth thing, but just wanted to make sure.

Also, is it possible to sex him yet? we've been calling him a boy, but I'm starting to thing he might be female due to the short tail.

I should also add that I know there is an issue with the nails. we've added a slate slab on the cool side of the tank near his food and water bowls to try and help them to wear down a bit, but we're willing to take him to a professional/vet to trim them if that doesn't help wear them down.

 

[Tom]

Nothing wrong with vivariums (aka: closed chambers), as long as they are large enough. Time for yours to be larger.

They all grow at different rates and for a wide variety of reasons. The difference can be extreme depending on diet, housing, temps, substrate, humidity, hydration, etc... Because of this, any average will be meaningless.

I can't tell the sex at this size, and the nails are fine and normal.

It looks like something has chewed on the anal scutes. Like a rodent or a cat maybe?

 

[William Smith]

chewed? I can't see what you mean there. I can't see any signs of that? but his vivarium is elevated around 3 feet high on top of a cabinet we have, and the glass doors are always closed unless we're cleaning, feeding or bathing so nothing should be able to get in. The only other pet we have is a dog (mastiff x), but he's never been around the tortoise without supervision.

We do let the tortoise go outside in a small pen we have when the weather is warm enough (again, only when supervised for an hour or so at a time), and our garden is brick paved, so could it be scrape marks perhaps? He hasn't been outside since last summer though.

Getting a larger vivarium/enclosure is on our to-do list. we're finding that it's getting hard to include large enough hides and stuff for him to still have a decent amount of room to roam, but we're struggling to find any that are larger than 4ft x 2ft. best we've found was a 5ft x 2ft, but that's barely an upgrade. Ideally I'd like something like a 5x5 or 6x6, so it might be a DIY job.

 

[Tom]

chewed? I can't see what you mean there. I can't see any signs of that? but his vivarium is elevated around 3 feet high on top of a cabinet we have, and the glass doors are always closed unless we're cleaning, feeding or bathing so nothing should be able to get in. The only other pet we have is a dog (mastiff x), but he's never been around the tortoise without supervision.

We do let the tortoise go outside in a small pen we have when the weather is warm enough (again, only when supervised for an hour or so at a time), and our garden is brick paved, so could it be scrape marks perhaps? He hasn't been outside since last summer though.

Getting a larger vivarium/enclosure is on our to-do list. we're finding that it's getting hard to include large enough hides and stuff for him to still have a decent amount of room to roam, but we're struggling to find any that are larger than 4ft x 2ft. best we've found was a 5ft x 2ft, but that's barely an upgrade. Ideally I'd like something like a 5x5 or 6x6, so it might be a DIY job.

Yes, chewed. Definitely damaged somehow. Can you show us a close up pic of the anal scutes? Something is going on there.

There is a company in the UK that is now making custom large vivs. 8x4 feet. I can't remember the name. Hopefully someone will chime in with that info.

 

[William Smith]

Yeah, if somebody could let me know the name of that company I'd definitely get one.

I'll have to get you a picture tomorrow if that's okay. It's now 1:15am, and I don't want to disturb him now that all his lights are out.

 

[Tom]

chewed?

I couldn't find any pics of my own star's anal scutes, so I found these at Startortoises.net. Scroll down the page and look at the Indian star anal scutes.

Boy or girl star tortoise?

Differentiating male and female Indian / Sri Lankan and Burmese star tortoises (Geochelone elegans, Geochelone platynota).

startortoises.net

 

[G-stars]

Does this tortoise have UV lights and/or enough calcium. Looks like it may have developed MBD. Hence the deformed anal scutes that @Tom mentioned. Overall it has a weird shell shape.

 

[William Smith]

Decided to just go and get some photos now. I've also attached some from the side which shows now the shell bends towards the ground as looking at those pictures in the link it definitely doesn't seem normal.

EDIT: I've also felt around them, and they don't feel rough or anything as if they'd been damaged. they still feel as smooth as the rest of his shell.

 

[William Smith]

Does this tortoise have UV lights and/or enough calcium. Looks like it may have developed MBD. Hence the deformed anal scutes that @Tom mentioned. Overall it has a weird shell shape.

Yeah, he has it all. He has a 10% UVB tube light which we change out roughly every 4-6 months, and for a heat source we have a ceramic heat lamp and the ambient temp is set to 95c. for calclum, we add a decent amount (not sure on exact amounts, but his food is covered) every 2-3 days.

 

[Krista S]

Yes, chewed. Definitely damaged somehow. Can you show us a close up pic of the anal scutes? Something is going on there.

There is a company in the UK that is now making custom large vivs. 8x4 feet. I can't remember the name. Hopefully someone will chime in with that info.

This is a link to the company in the UK (Southdown Aquatics) who makes the large vivariums.

https://southdown-aquatics.co.uk/product-category/8ft-vivariums/

 

[Tom]

This is a link to the company in the UK (Southdown Aquatics) who makes the large vivariums.

https://southdown-aquatics.co.uk/product-category/8ft-vivariums/

YES! That is the one. You are awesome. Thank you Krista.

 

[G-stars]

Yeah, he has it all. He has a 10% UVB tube light which we change out roughly every 4-6 months, and for a heat source we have a ceramic heat lamp and the ambient temp is set to 95c. for calclum, we add a decent amount (not sure on exact amounts, but his food is covered) every 2-3 days.

After seeing the new pictures it makes me think that it is quite possibly MBD. Only times I’ve ever seen weird shell growth like that has been on tortoises that developed MBD. Does this tortoise have access to the outdoors to get some direct sunshine even for a few months out fo the year?

Sometimes UV bulbs come defective, the only way to know for sure they are working properly is with a UV meter.

 

[William Smith]

After seeing the new pictures it makes me think that it is quite possibly MBD. Only times I’ve ever seen weird shell growth like that has been on tortoises that developed MBD. Does this tortoise have access to the outdoors to get some direct sunshine even for a few months out fo the year?

Sometimes UV bulbs come defective, the only way to know for sure they are working properly is with a UV meter.

Sorry for the late reply. I've not long finished work. This is all so much worse than I originally thought it was, but I'm so glad that you were able to point this out to me. On the way home today i went and bought another UVB tube light just in case. they said that they don't stock the UV meters though - Are the any that you can recommend that I can buy from Amazon or somewhere?

I'm now also worried that the UVB lights I've been buying just don't work properly or I've been buying the wrong ones. The ones I've been getting are the Exo Terra UVB150 42" tubes - Would you recommend going up to the UVB200 ones instead? Also, i know it's cold out (the highest temp outside today was 11c, 51f) but it's been quite sunny today where I live. would it be safe to bring him outside for a small amount of time just to try and get him some natural UV? If so, how long do you think would be safe? I wouldn't want to risk him getting ill from being too cold.

We're also increasing the amount of calcium he gets, and also upping it to every other day instead of every 3 days.

As for the MBD, I'm afraid I don't know much about it. I've booked an appointment with my vet who can't see me until next week (mostly due to my work schedule not allowing me time during weekdays), but in the meantime is this something that's likely to go away after fixing the problems with the enclosure setup? i know the way the shell has formed will most likely never recover, but if I can prevent it from getting any worse then that would be amazing.

Sorry to bombard you with so many questions so quickly. I just want to fix my mistakes as quickly as possible, and i feel terrible.

 

[Tom]

Sorry for the late reply. I've not long finished work. This is all so much worse than I originally thought it was, but I'm so glad that you were able to point this out to me. On the way home today i went and bought another UVB tube light just in case. they said that they don't stock the UV meters though - Are the any that you can recommend that I can buy from Amazon or somewhere?

I'm now also worried that the UVB lights I've been buying just don't work properly or I've been buying the wrong ones. The ones I've been getting are the Exo Terra UVB150 42" tubes - Would you recommend going up to the UVB200 ones instead? Also, i know it's cold out (the highest temp outside today was 11c, 51f) but it's been quite sunny today where I live. would it be safe to bring him outside for a small amount of time just to try and get him some natural UV? If so, how long do you think would be safe? I wouldn't want to risk him getting ill from being too cold.

We're also increasing the amount of calcium he gets, and also upping it to every other day instead of every 3 days.

As for the MBD, I'm afraid I don't know much about it. I've booked an appointment with my vet who can't see me until next week (mostly due to my work schedule not allowing me time during weekdays), but in the meantime is this something that's likely to go away after fixing the problems with the enclosure setup? i know the way the shell has formed will most likely never recover, but if I can prevent it from getting any worse then that would be amazing.

Sorry to bombard you with so many questions so quickly. I just want to fix my mistakes as quickly as possible, and i feel terrible.

You don't need calcium more than twice a week. Too much can cause mineral imbalances and lead to other problems.

The UV meter you need is the Solarmeter 6.5. The Solarmeter 6.5R is the exact same meter with a different sticker on it. Both will work for you. There is no other that I know of that measures the correct UV wavelength that we are concerned with for our tortoises and other reptiles to use for D3 manufacture.

I would not put a star tortoise outside at those temps. Wait for it to be above 24C, sunny, dry, and not windy.

Did you see Krista's post above these ones? She posted the name of the larger viv makers there in the UK for you. Southdown Aquatics.

 

[turtlesteve]

The shell growth is definitely off. The two vertical rows of plastron scutes (left and right) are fused together, allowing the plastron to get wider but not longer. So, the carapace is outgrowing the plastron and causing a deformity.

I have wondered for some time exactly how and why this happens. I am not sure if the problem is the actual keratin scutes becoming fused, or something going in in the underlying bone, or some combination of the two. I would not be surprised by an association with MBD in some cases, but certainly not always. I have also seen this happen when:

- There is a congenital cause and it's associated with split or extra scutes.

- A tortoise stops growing (presumably under adverse conditions such as extreme dryness) and when growth resumes, some of the scute boundaries fail to "re-activate". This happens with hatchlings that are kept poorly (e.g. during some part of the supply chain when they are held at a pet store or retailer), but it also seems to commonly affect wild caught Russian tortoises that are brought into captivity.

In your case I am fairly confident that it's the second case. It is quite clear when the deformity began. See below:



Note that I only highlighted the scute boundaries on one side. The tortoise was originally growing normally (yellow lines indicating the outline of each scute at a younger age). Then, something happened where the tortoise stopped growing - there is a very deep growth line - and after that point, the horizontal boundaries (red lines) are all stuck and inactive. The vertical boundary (blue line) is growing normally.

If it's only one or two scute boundaries that quit growing, it remains a benign cosmetic issue, but when it's several adjacent scutes it results in deformity. I have examples of both. On quite rare occasions a previously "stuck" boundary will start growing normally again.

Hope this helps,
Steve

 

[TeamZissou]

The shell growth is definitely off. The two vertical rows of plastron scutes (left and right) are fused together, allowing the plastron to get wider but not longer. So, the carapace is outgrowing the plastron and causing a deformity.

I have wondered for some time exactly how and why this happens. I am not sure if the problem is the actual keratin scutes becoming fused, or something going in in the underlying bone, or some combination of the two. I would not be surprised by an association with MBD in some cases, but certainly not always. I have also seen this happen when:

- There is a congenital cause and it's associated with split or extra scutes.

- A tortoise stops growing (presumably under adverse conditions such as extreme dryness) and when growth resumes, some of the scute boundaries fail to "re-activate". This happens with hatchlings that are kept poorly (e.g. during some part of the supply chain when they are held at a pet store or retailer), but it also seems to commonly affect wild caught Russian tortoises that are brought into captivity.

In your case I am fairly confident that it's the second case. It is quite clear when the deformity began. See below:

View attachment 321139

Note that I only highlighted the scute boundaries on one side. The tortoise was originally growing normally (yellow lines indicating the outline of each scute at a younger age). Then, something happened where the tortoise stopped growing - there is a very deep growth line - and after that point, the horizontal boundaries (red lines) are all stuck and inactive. The vertical boundary (blue line) is growing normally.

If it's only one or two scute boundaries that quit growing, it remains a benign cosmetic issue, but when it's several adjacent scutes it results in deformity. I have examples of both. On quite rare occasions a previously "stuck" boundary will start growing normally again.

Hope this helps,
Steve

Could the weird growth/folds in the plastron be explained as simply as the tortoise being in too small of an enclosure for too long? Four years in a 4x2' enclosure seems like about 2.5 years too long for normal growth to occur.

 

[turtwigtortoise]

YES! That is the one. You are awesome. Thank you Krista.

Southdown Aquatics are only providing delivery for keepers within a certain distance from themselves - unless you can pick it up or arrange a courier out of your own pocket.

Neither option was possible for me, so I found another fairly priced company for vivs in the UK called ProVivs. Free delivery anywhere in the UK also.

Just thought I’d chime in incase OP had the same issue!

 

[Markw84]

@William Smith

I would agree that your tortoise is suffering from Metabolic Bone Disease. The explaination @turtlesteve gave shows the visible growth pattern evidencing this. This is caused by the bone plate underlying the scutes stopping to grow. By the time a tortoise is about 2 yrs old, the bones of the plastron have pretty much ossified and fused. It does take that long. Bone, if not given enough D3, calcium, phosphorus and magnesium in the right quantities will not continue to grow properly. Once ossified and fused, this can cause new growth to occur only at longer bone locations. We often see this in older tortoises where conditions improve, but the carapace will grow mainly at the costal/marginal boundaries leaving the top part of the carapace taking on a very distorted "crunched in" type look. With the plastron, growth normally is better along the midseam, longitudinal seam, while growth on the cross or vertical seams become much reduced.

I would bet your issue is the UVB you are using. IF going to the vet, ask to check the 25(OH)D levels (the vitamin D levels). I'll bet it is very low. Can we see pictures of the bulb and the enclosure and how it is mounted? You reference an Exo terra UVB 150 that is 42". Unless that is a weird European version of a bulb being offered, the Exo Terra UVB150 is a compact fluorescent as is the UVB 200. Neither are very good bulbs at all for tortoises, and put out very little useful UVB. I would strongly recommend getting an Arcadia pro T5 uvb. Easily found in Europe they are the best UVB source for tortoises in my opinion. Get a 12% bulb in the package you order and set at about 20" above tortoise level. You need a good UVB bulb in your area at 52.5° lattidude where the sun much of the year is not high enough to produce good UVI levels.

Please post some pictures of your setup and let us know what your vet says.

 

[TeamZissou]

Here's an ExoTerra 150 42" bulb that seems to be available in the UK. Looks to be a T8:

Exo Terra Reptile UVB 150 Tube

Buy Exo Terra products online at Northampton Reptile Centre. Flexible payment options at checkout & next-day delivery are available.

www.reptilecentre.com

Could be what the OP is referring to.