Is my tortoise's shell deformed? Detailed info + pics

[reptire]

Disclaimer: I've bought him about 4 months ago with an already deformed and quite soft and squishy shell.

The shell is still quite squishy, although I've noticed a tiny bit of hardening.
The deformation is not reversing itself, rather it's getting more and more characteristic. It may be due to growth, but he only grew about 0,5 inches since getting here.

Lights: Both a strong basking light and a UVB lamp is provided, switching periodically between the two. (It's not possible to set up both of them, my space only allows for one at a time.)

Water: No water bowl in the enclousure, but I do bathe him in warm water for at least 20 minutes at least once per day.

Food:
I feed him with two different kinds of food.
- fresh milfoil and dandelion sprinkled with Sera Reptimineral H (which is full of vitamins and calcium)
http://www.sera.de/us/pages/products/in_category/herbivore-214/product/sera-reptimineral-h.html
- Sera Reptil Professional Herbivor
http://www.sera.de/en/pages/product...roduct/sera-reptil-professional-herbivor.html
"sera reptil Professional Herbivor is the unique co-extruded supplementary food for herbivorous reptiles such as tortoises or iguanas. The food ring consists of a herbal mixture with over 20 carefully selected herbs from the natural food spectrum of European tortoises. They are supplemented by high quality herbal proteins and fats. The food core contains essential vitamins – carefully processed by the special low temperature process – and mineral substances as well as algae for strengthening disease resistance. The optimal ration of calcium and phosphorus is the basis for healthy bone and shell growth."

Now, onto the questions!
1. Is the tortoise's shell deformed based on the pictures?
2. Can I reverse the process?
3. If the shell is deformed, will it have any damaging effects on him?
4. If the shell does actually continue to deform, what am I doing wrong? (I can't think of anything really, the food is top-notch, the lights are sufficient, etc.)

 

[Yvonne G]

The overall shape of the tortoise seems more round than a normal-looking Hermann's tortoise, but other than that, I don't see anything wrong with it. I'd say just keep doing what you're doing. He seems to be getting better.

 

[Tom]

1. It doesn't look too bad, but every single pic is blurry, so we really can't see it too well. If its "squishy" you have a problem.
2. You can get the shell to calcify, but I'm not sure that constitutes a "reversal".
3. No way to predict this. Time will tell.
4. I don't agree with your parenthesized assumptions. We'll need more info to help you with this.

I don't agree that your food is top notch or that your lighting is sufficient. I am not familiar with those brands, but I can tell you that any man made food should be used as no more than a supplement to a diet of real greens, weeds and leaves. Also it sounds like a case of gross over supplementation. If your diet is good, they should not need more than a day or two of light supplementation per week.

Lighting: I don't know what it is you are doing, but it sounds off. The tortoise should have a daily basking spot of around 95 degrees. Set this temp by adjusting the wattage or the height of the fixture. I like to put the basking bulb on a timer to keep it consistent. 12 hours a day should work. My favorite way to do this for an indoor tortoise is to use a Mercury Vapor bulb. If that won't work for you for some reason then a regular incandescent flood bulb coupled with a long florescent tube type UV bulb should cover you. Indoor artificial UV is weak and needs to be provided all day everyday, especially if you have a tortoise with a soft shell.

Last point: All of these problems would be solved by simply giving your tortoise some outside time in a secure, weedy enclosure. He could get real sunshine and graze on the right foods all day long. Generally speaking, man made foods and UV bulbs are a poor substitute for the real thing. Sometimes we have to make do, but the real thing should be offered as much as possible.

 

[Minority1]

(Do you mind taking a picture of your enclosure so we can have a better idea?)

Can you explain how you're unable to use two light fixtures? (Not Possible doesn't explain anything, I also hate these words in general* )

Are you unable to buy a 2x outlet timer?
A surge protector?
Do you not have enough room to position them? If so does that mean you also have a smaller than adequate enclosure?
If you do have a small area does that mean you're also using a small UVB bulb like the coil and U-bend types, which are known to cause eye problems?

Tortoises need micro-climates because they need to be able to thermo-regulate their bodies for their vital organs to function. Swapping out lights means the tortoise isn't receiving the minimum required hours of lighting per day while it's inside. I agree with Tom, the over supplementing and small variety of fresh greens are not gonna make it any better. Light swapping can actually hinder their abilities to properly process all that extra calcium they're getting.

 

[reptire]

(Do you mind taking a picture of your enclosure so we can have a better idea?)

Can you explain how you're unable to use two light fixtures? (Not Possible doesn't explain anything, I also hate these words in general* )

Are you unable to buy a 2x outlet timer?
A surge protector?
Do you not have enough room to position them? If so does that mean you also have a smaller than adequate enclosure?
If you do have a small area does that mean you're also using a small UVB bulb like the coil and U-bend types, which are known to cause eye problems?

Tortoises need micro-climates because they need to be able to thermo-regulate their bodies for their vital organs to function. Swapping out lights means the tortoise isn't receiving the minimum required hours of lighting per day while it's inside. I agree with Tom, the over supplementing and small variety of fresh greens are not gonna make it any better. Light swapping can actually hinder their abilities to properly process all that extra calcium they're getting.

A smaller than adequate enclosure? Not yet, because my tortoise is small for now. When he grows, I'll buy a bigger enclosure. I borrowed the camera and my phone takes even worse pictures, so that's out of the question, the point is that I don't have enough room to position any more because of my big vivarium for my snake and a heater and cleaner for my fish tank. They're next to each other, the tortoise's being in the middle.
I live in a flat, not a house with a garden, so any outside enclosure is not possible. I'll, however, take the terrarium out to the balcony tomorrow since it's sunny.

 

[Tom]

A couple of things about taking the terrarium outside: 1.The glass will filter out any UV. 2. The glass sides will also act as a green house and temps can get dangerously high even on a cool day. Use a thermometer and be very careful. In my signature is a thread on how to make a simple sunning enclosure out of a cheap plastic kiddie pool. I wonder if that would fit on your balcony. The low sides and large footprint will keep it from getting too hot and it won't block so much of the sun. Just a suggestion.

With a soft shell, your baby is in a dire state of emergency. He needs adequate heat AND UV all day, every day. I hope you are able to find a solution before its too late.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Sun will do wonders. Just be sure that if your little one is outside tomorrow that there is a saucer with water and some shade so your tortoise does not fry. Soaks do wonders and remember that hot-humid conditions for little ones seems to be key. Search "closed chambers" and read all that wonderful information on this forum. Lots of greens, weeds. If man made it, not the same. Nature bats first, and last! : )

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I agree with Tom, your food and lights are not good enough. It looks to me like the scutes are sunken in, is that how they really are? The pix are difficult to really see what's going on. You can buy 1 UVB bulb and that would suffice, there's no need for separate basking and UVB bulbs. Your tortoise needs 12 hours minimum of UVB light to stop the damage to his shell. Get some produce like collards or dandelions or any other dark leafy greens. Get some TNT from Carolina Pet Supply and sprinkle some 3 times a week on is food. Can't you put a plant pot saucer in his habitat so he has access to water when he wants it?
I don't mean any disrespect but you have an animal who has specific requirements, you see he is not healthy and when we give you the advice YOU asked for you say that's not possible. You need to make serious changes to the way he is kept or he will not survive. We are just trying you use our collective experience to help you/him.
He needs a better diet, better UVB lighting, more exercise, and we are just trying to help you with all this before he gets any worse.
Is there a park or grassy area close to you where you could take him and let him walk around and graze on grasses and weeds? HTH

 

[luvpetz27]

You said there is no water in the enclosure but I think there should be. I didnt read everyons replies but I am sure someone mentioned it.

 

[reptire]

There's no water bowl in his enclosure because he is too little to reach most saucers and when I found one that was low enough for him to drink, he flipped to his back and nearly drowned himself in it... So... Yeah. There's a big park here, which, although full of cigarette butts, can provide some place for him to play around. I'll do that, too. But I only have about 1 hour a day for that, and not even every day. If I stretch it, maybe 2 hours on the weekends.

---

Yes, the first scutes are sunken, unfortunately. I bought him already like this though, from a pet shop owner who kept him only on iceberg lettuce. He was also very expensive. I'm confident that were it not for me, he'd be dead already. I'm doing, and will do, everything I can. I'll put him in the park, I'll put him on the balcony, I'll keep the UVB going 12 hours a day. I read elsewhere that milfoil and dandelions were perfect for hermann's, so what's the problem with those? I can understand your problem with over supplementation, I'll stop doing that...

What do you suggest I do for winter? We had a harsh one here in Eastern Europe and it lasted until about the middle of this month.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Purchase a terra cotta saucer. It's the little dish you can place potted plants in to catch the excess water.

You can choose from clay, plastic or glazed. Small ones go for .50 to a dollar. Larger ones are more. But still only a couple of bucks.

It's shallow enough for baby torts to get into and no risk of drowning.

 

[reptire]

No dandelions in winter, only milfoil, and you have to dig through the snow for those... Also no possibility of giving him real sunlight if I don't want him to freeze.

 

[Blakem]

There's no water bowl in his enclosure because he is too little to reach most saucers and when I found one that was low enough for him to drink, he flipped to his back and nearly drowned himself in it... So... Yeah. There's a big park here, which, although full of cigarette butts, can provide some place for him to play around. I'll do that, too. But I only have about 1 hour a day for that, and not even every day. If I stretch it, maybe 2 hours on the weekends.

---

Yes, the first scutes are sunken, unfortunately. I bought him already like this though, from a pet shop owner who kept him only on iceberg lettuce. He was also very expensive. I'm confident that were it not for me, he'd be dead already. I'm doing, and will do, everything I can. I'll put him in the park, I'll put him on the balcony, I'll keep the UVB going 12 hours a day. I read elsewhere that milfoil and dandelions were perfect for hermann's, so what's the problem with those? I can understand your problem with over supplementation, I'll stop doing that...

What do you suggest I do for winter? We had a harsh one here in Eastern Europe and it lasted until about the middle of this month.

---

One hour a day is wonderful. Please do at least 30 mind to one hour a day, or every other day. Do you have future plans of having your Hermann outside?


Sulcata (Dexter)
Russian (Ezek)

 

[Minority1]

Why don't you just put the water saucer in the enclosure and pat down the surrounding area so the substrate is on level with the saucer? Common sense.

Terra cotta dishes are the best. (Link used as Reference, prices are cheaper*)
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Norcal-P...Cotta-Saucer-100043043/100153493#.UXTWtsokRvI

I agree with Maggie.
If you're already seeing signs of MBD then now is the time to get on the ball and do your job as an owner to provide for your pet. If you don't enough room, make room. If you don't have the time to bring your tortoise outside then buy an MVB bulb because whatever you got ain't cutting it.

You seem to be more defensive about our advice than embracing it. I haven't read anything about you addressing any of the concerns we're having. I see, no space, no time and not possible. Please do remember that we are trying to help you, any negative responses only shows how passionate we are about tortoises and their welfare.

 

[reptire]

I do embrace the advice. I will take him outside.
Also, I asked a follow-up question about his food.
Oh and, obviously, once he gets bigger, I'll make space for a bigger terrarium.

I don't have future plans for a garden, no.

---

Plus, I asked about what to do at winter time. Little or none fresh greens and sunlight then and I can't take him outside obviously.

 

[Minority1]

Here are some approved plants and greens for Hermanns, you can find all this on the interweb:

Dark leafy greens - kale, collards, shard, so on.
Prickly pear cactus pads
Dandelion - flowers and leaves
Grape leaves
Plantain
Sow thistle
Bittercress Landcress
Dead nettle Clover
Vetch Cats ears
Mulberry leaves Lavatera - flowers and leaves
Hibiscus - flowers and leaves Pansies/viola
Nasturtiums
Honeysuckle - flowers only Welsh Poppies
Hollyhocks Rose petals
Campanula (another favourite) Evening Primrose
Wild Mallow Rough Hawkbit

First things first, move the enclosure to a spot where you'll be able to setup the necessary light fixtures. Rearrange your furniture I don't care, make it happen. Doing so will solve your winter/lighting/heating problems. Bringing your tortoise outside is encouraged but no one is going overreact if you're unable do so provided that you at least have the minimum UVB/heating requirements for an indoor enclosure. If you can't go to the local farmers market then buy your greens at the local supermarket, you can also plant your own. A varied diet doesn't have to mean a plateful of different greens a day. Feed them one kind of green every few days then switch to another and so. Pretty soon you'll start back to the first green on the list and then you can start the cycle all over.

There you go, what other problems you got?

 

[reptire]

Took him to a vet. He will get a treatment of calcium injection twice a week for a month. He also got a d3 vitamin injection now and will get one more a month from now.
Apart from exposure to sun, the vet said I'm doing everything I can. I will take him out to the sun as much as my time allows me to do so. Hopefully he will get strong by winter, when the UVB lamp will have to suffice for a while.

 

[mike taylor]

You got ti make sure you replace your uv light every four to six months.

 

[reptire]

You got ti make sure you replace your uv light every four to six months.

I know that, but if I rarely use it during spring and summer, is that still the case?
My question is whether it still needs to be replaced after six months if I don't use it at all for months. Is it still getting weaker as time goes if it's unplugged?

 

[Yvonne G]

No, it means after 6 months of use. You can buy a UV tester to see how much UV is being put out by your light.