Is he pyramiding?

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goReptiles

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He'll be a year old next month.

Enclosure: 50 gallon tub. coconut coir and sand mix with moss in the hides and grass.

Humidity: It's been great since I added more moss to his hides, and started growing some grasses from one of the mixes on Carolina Pet

Heating: Just right

Lighting: When he's outside

Outside time: a few times a week for about an hour at a time

Diet: spring mix, squash, zucchini, mushrooms, strawberries, honey due, watermelon, bell peppers, and other various fruits and veggies. He gets veggies daily, except Wednesday and Saturday when he gets fruits. Fridays he gets salmon EVO dog kibble soaked in calcium and water. There's a cuttle bone in the tub, but he doesn't gnaw on it.

Water: There's a water bowl to drink and soak in. I mist him twice a day and he hates it. He gets a 'bath' several times a week, in addition to the water bowl that's kept full for whenever he feels the need.


Some days he looks fine and other days he looks extra bumpy. I had more pictures, but for some reason can't get them to pull up. I can try to get them to upload later or when I get home. Please let me know what you guys think.
 

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Missy

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Its hard to tell from a top view but what I can see he looks good. A side view would show better. Do you have a heat source for him? We tend to keep our homes cooler than torts like. Sounds like you are doing great with his care.
 

Tom

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Ditto what Missy said. Looks great to me, but they all look smooth from the top.
 

Madkins007

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Being as picky as I can based on the photos, it looks like there MAY be a wide growth line there, but when you look at the shell curvature against the background, I really don't see bumpiness.

Hates misting? Maybe the water is too cold? When you mist, it drops temps a bit so I usually use warm water, unless I WANT to drop temps a bit.
 

goReptiles

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I'll try to get better pictures, to include pictures from the side. I'm just worried he's pyramiding. I've heard some torts will take grow spurts and get bumpy but will even out. I didn't know if that could be the case here, or if it's the beginning of pyramiding.

I do have a heat source. I actually use two ceramic heat bulbs, as during winter it got really cold inside even with heater running because I have to run the window unit running for the dog, and during the summer, the window unit still has to run with the central air.

I will try using lukewarm water when misting.

Here are several shots, hopefully they will help... I also included a shot of the pup/old man that has to have the a/c.
 

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N2TORTS

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you lil ' guy is doing just fine! .....not so much diet is the issue for hatchlings/young torts who are rapidly growing , key is to keep the carapace wet/ moist....try to mist 2-3 times a day if possible...but not a soaking "subsrate" which can lead to fungus/rots ect.
" Happy Tort~N"
JD~:)
 

goReptiles

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Sorry.. Here are the rest of the pictures. Some days it looks worse than others. Today it doesn't look too bad, but this is what he looks like most of the time.

4.jpg

5.jpg

6.jpg

7.jpg

8.jpg

9.jpg


And, here's Codie
codie.jpg
 

-JM

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What a pretty tort! He looks smooth to me. :)
 

PeanutbuttER

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Looks pretty smooth to me too. Love the chocolate spot coloring on the shell.
 

Tom

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In all of those photos your tortoise looks smooth and great, except one. This one:
2rxv5a9.jpg


I'm being extra critical here because you are specifically asking about pyramiding and it is MUCH easier to prevent than it is to fight once it starts.

In this profile shot you can clearly see the rear scute and the scutes on the back are slightly raised, not bad, mind you, but it is the start of pyramiding.

I should note that I haven't kept a redfoot for many years, but I have been talking with Terry K. extensively about redfoots, pyramiding, pyramiding prevention, shell rot in redfoots, and his care sheet. Also, you can probably tell that I'm a bit obsessed with all things pyramiding. Yours looks better than any I ever raised up until the last couple of months, so please understand that it is not bad at all, but it IS starting just a little.

If this were my tortoise, I would bump up the humidity and increase the shell spraying to at least 5 or 6 times a day. I would remove the tort from the enclosure for this as you don't want shell rot from too damp of a substrate, as JD noted above. I would also do a warm water soak at least once or twice a day. Further you could tack a wet sponge to the tops of your hides or add some long fibered sphagnum moss, to increase the humidity of your humid hides. As I noted in my other thread, I am not sure which one of these thing, or combination of these things, is actually the preventer of pyramiding, but I do know that all of these things together DO stop and prevent pyramiding.

For the shell spraying, do a little experiment for me. I have found that water sprayed in a fine mist cools significantly within inches of leaving the bottle. Try putting hot water in your spray bottle and then spray the inside of your forearm from a foot or two away. I'll bet you the water is just barely warm by the time it reaches your arm. Every sprayer is different and humidity in the room is a factor here too, so test it out to find the right water temp for your situation before spraying your tort.
 

TORTOMANIA

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My opinion is to cut out the dog food , i have never been a fan of dog or cat food. I use mealworms for my young ones to get their protein
I beleive in slow steady growth, don't feed them as much as they will eat. If it makes you feel better, buy a cheap uvb light, but I have mixed thoughts on these on redfoots. very nice colors on your tortoise
 

Redfoot NERD

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Whitney it's good that you are concerned at this early age! Extreme attention to detail IS vital at this time.

Any time a redfoot enclosure is inside where there is AC going on it can be an uphill battle.

As Tom has stated - this is 'critique' under a magnifying glass.

The best type substrate for a redfoot is one that dries out quick. One that does not retain water - most anything other than cypress mulch will grow a fungus because of the higher temps and moisture retention qualities involved. Again this is inside.. and not in their 'hide'. These temps should seldom vary more than 5 F max. thru-out the entire enclosure. Low to mid-80's is what I've found works best for them

Humidity retention should come from above and not from below is why I simply make a "soaking/water" dish available and never 'force-soak'. I just believe it's better to provide and give them the option - less stress on all concerned. [ they don't need a stress enhanced laxative.. for anyone that was thinking that ]

Tom goes to the extremes that he does to prevent pyramiding.. because where he is from there are 100F temps and you can spit and it evaporates before it hits the ground!!!
36_12_6.gif
[ well maybe not that bad ]

Be not concerned about the "HOT" water in the spray bottle... it'll be cool enough to not stress him when you mist him.

All in all be sure to only feed [ once a day ] no more than what he will eat in a few minutes.. at the young age as yours they can easily overeat.

Basic care requirements will yield good results and can be attained regardless where anyone lives .. it can be easier or more challenging based on location. It's always worth the efforts.. Tom have demonstrated that.

NERD

Tom said:
TORTOMANIA said:
My opinion is to cut out the dog food , i have never been a fan of dog or cat food. I use mealworms for my young ones to get their protein
I beleive in slow steady growth, don't feed them as much as they will eat. If it makes you feel better, buy a cheap uvb light, but I have mixed thoughts on these on redfoots. very nice colors on your tortoise

Hi TORTOMANIA. I'm not a redfoot guy and this is not an argument, I'm just bringing it up for conversation as its related to the OP. I also think it might be interesting to you. It has been proven, in other species, that protein and slow growth have no discernible effect on pyramiding. Here's a study done in Austria in 2003. They were trying to prove that excess protein DOES contribute to pyramiding and instead proved that it doesn't, and that humidity prevents it.

http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf

I and several others can also show you examples of slow growth and little to no protein in the diet on torts that still pyramided significantly.

You might still be right about the dog and cat food, I just wanted to share what I know about protein.

Of course Tom you know I agree about the catfood [ my case is a lot due to numbers being fed for convenience also ].

My Gecko friends don't like mealworms because of the high fat low protein ratio.. and you'll love this - they prefer ROACHES!!!

Maybe TORTOMANIA would like to try a few roaches?

NERD
 

Tom

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TORTOMANIA said:
My opinion is to cut out the dog food , i have never been a fan of dog or cat food. I use mealworms for my young ones to get their protein
I beleive in slow steady growth, don't feed them as much as they will eat. If it makes you feel better, buy a cheap uvb light, but I have mixed thoughts on these on redfoots. very nice colors on your tortoise

Hi TORTOMANIA. I'm not a redfoot guy and this is not an argument, I'm just bringing it up for conversation as its related to the OP. I also think it might be interesting to you. It has been proven, in other species, that protein and slow growth have no discernible effect on pyramiding. Here's a study done in Austria in 2003. They were trying to prove that excess protein DOES contribute to pyramiding and instead proved that it doesn't, and that humidity prevents it.

http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf

I and several others can also show you examples of slow growth and little to no protein in the diet on torts that still pyramided significantly.

You might still be right about the dog and cat food, I just wanted to share what I know about protein.
 

goReptiles

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PeanutbuttER, the spotting is what gave him his name- Domino. It reminded me like the spots on dominoes.

Tom and Terry. Thank you. I have tried live insects, but he's not a fan. I will try them again, but he always seem more nervous than anything because it moves. He loves the dog food. It's a high protein dog food with no fillers. In regards to humidity, do you think that more spraying will be sufficient? I can add the damp sponge to the hides, and add more moss.

Do you know about how long it will take for the rear to even back out?
 

Redfoot NERD

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goReptiles said:
PeanutbuttER, the spotting is what gave him his name- Domino. It reminded me like the spots on dominoes.

Tom and Terry. Thank you. I have tried live insects, but he's not a fan. I will try them again, but he always seem more nervous than anything because it moves. He loves the dog food. It's a high protein dog food with no fillers. In regards to humidity, do you think that more spraying will be sufficient? I can add the damp sponge to the hides, and add more moss.

Do you know about how long it will take for the rear to even back out?

Damp sponge?

What are the list of ingredients in the dog food.. %/type of protein?

I've noticed that it should be less obvious within a year or so.. depending on the size and severity of the abnormality. You can not spray him too much. I suspect 'overfeeding' more than a humidity issue.

I'm NOT saying that Domino is a freak! Remember we are being overly cautious to prevent irreversible damage.
 

HarleyK

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Hey Goreptile,

What is the humidity level in the tub? It sounds like a good setup....but maybe not humid enough?
 

goReptiles

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Redfoot NERD said:
Damp sponge?

What are the list of ingredients in the dog food.. %/type of protein?

I've noticed that it should be less obvious within a year or so.. depending on the size and severity of the abnormality. You can not spray him too much. I suspect 'overfeeding' more than a humidity issue.

I'm NOT saying that Domino is a freak! Remember we are being overly cautious to prevent irreversible damage.

I saw where it was suggested to place a damp sponge on the underside of the hide.

EVO herring and salmon ingredients:
herring, salmon meal, herring meal, peas, salmon, eggs, herring oil, pea fiber, sunflower oil, natural flavors, apples, carrots, cottage cheese, dried chicory root, glucosamine hydrochloride, chondroitin sulfate, minerals, vitamins, and drirect-fed microbials

guaranteed analysis:
crude protein (min)- 42%
crude fat (min)- 18%
crude fiber (max)- 3%

nutritient analysis:
Protein - 42.98 %
Fat - 18.6 %
Fiber - 2.01 %

I do understand. I'm being quite cautious. There are days, when he doesn't eat or barely eats and days when he eats everything. At 12 months, what is the norm.
 

Redfoot NERD

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Whitney the sponge idea will work providing the hide has a removable lid that you can lift off without disturbing the set-up.. or you can have the hide 'area' open without anything around it so you can pick-up the hide and mist the moss/sponge daily.

The FAT in that dog food is really high.. which is contributing to the 'fast' growth. The fibre is very low also. FYI.. this is what I feed in small amounts - http://www.proplan.com/dry-cat-food/weight-management-formula/default.aspx

Mine for the first year are fed small amounts daily and about once a week I'll allow them to "fast". I believe in captivity it is better to keep them hungry and feed just a few of the 'higher-nutrient' greens, etc. Others seem to think that it's important to have every item known to be edible in their diet.. which I doubt they ever get in the wild.

What is the norm? Since I feed them less they almost always eat everyday. Remember these little dudes are opportunistic which means they think that this is their last meal so they better eat it if they can. They gorge one day and can't eat the next.... plus it takes probly 4-5(?) days for anything to pass thru...

NERD
 
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