Interesting info...food for thought

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yagyujubei

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Here's some info from South Africa : Leopard Tortoises in Captivity
A Keeper’s Guide
Mary Sadler-Altena
Geochelone pardalis) which is kept as a pet. Unfortunately many are put in inadequate enclosures and expected to live on a totally unsuitable diet.

It is of course against the law to keep reptiles in captivity without a permit and in happier instances the owner of a newly acquired tortoise will apply for one. An official from Nature Conservation will then make sure that the facilities in which the reptile is to be kept are adequate and that the captive will be fed a proper diet.

So what are the requirements?
First of all the enclosure. This should preferably comprise the whole garden, with its trees and shrubs and lawns and nooks and crannies for sleeping quarters. Leopard tortoises are very territorial and always go back to the same “bedroom”. Of course the fence must be such that the miniature tank cannot force its way out as it would do with post and rail. Keep in mind that tortoises seem to have no sense of self-preservation and will get irretrievably stuck sideways in a palisade fence if given half a chance. If the run of the garden is impractical, make the enclosure as securely fenced and as big as possible. Tortoises are wanderers and in the wild occupy a home range of from 1 to 3 square kilometres. Few sights are more pathetic than seeing one trudge endlessly around the perimeter of its pen in either dust or mud, compliments of the weather. If the base is sand, OK, but the drainage must be such that there is no danger of waterlogging on rainy days. The enclosure must have shelter and for the less ambitious landscaper a commercial doghouse will do just fine, provided the entrance is big enough. A more natural looking shelter of rocks and maybe tree stumps would of course be more pleasing aesthetically. But garden or pen, one vital feature of the tortoise’s domain is a swimming pool, incidentally a prerequisite for getting your permit. Leopard tortoises love to swim and, judging by the length of time they spend in the water, they need it. However, be prepared to clean often, for it will be extensively used as a water loo.

Diet: why some people think tortoises will thrive on a diet of lettuce leaves is a mystery, for where would they come by such fare in the wild? In the veld, the leopard tortoise will stuff its huge body with just about anything it comes across, be it grasses, succulents, aloes, fungi, wild fruits and berries, millipedes, snails, faeces (especially an hyena’s), reptile and birds’ eggs and the corpses of small animals such as frogs and mice. An average sized garden should have a stock of some of these, but must be complemented with seasonal fruit and chopped-up vegetables as well as protein in the form of canned pet food and dog meal. Raw eggs are a treat and should be given unless you have free-ranging chickens in which case the tortoise will help itself. And of course don’t let it loose in your prized flower beds. It loves flowers and a fussy eater may often be tempted with bright orange or yellow ones.

During the winter months the tortoise’s activity level will be very low and food should not be offered during the coldest months provided there is some grazing available.

Tortoises are said to be carriers of Salmonella bacteria and adequate hygiene should therefore be observed when handling them.

Also, any new arrival should be inspected for ticks and sprayed with a dip suitable for dogs/horses, as an engorged female tick will lay up to 3 000 eggs and quickly infest your garden.

With proper care leopard tortoises can live up to 70 – 75 years, reaching sexual maturity at 15. They readily breed in captivity and the clutch of 5 to 20 eggs are laid in a hole as deep as the female’s hind foot can dig, then refilled and tamped fast with the underside of the shell. After about a year, depending on the weather, the eggs will hatch and if the soil is soft enough the little ones can burrow to the surface, otherwise they will have to wait for a rainy day. The hatchlings weigh from 25 – 50 gram and are 40 – 50 mm long. In their natural environment they will at first feed mainly from cover to protect themselves from predators. If born in captivity, these small ones require much extra care of course, but the mortality rate won’t be nearly as high as it is in the wild.

Growth during the first years is slow. When they are about 7 years old they may weigh only up to l kg and after that their mass just about doubles every 2 – 3 years until maturity is reached.

Tortoises are prone to digestive upsets if fed the wrong kind of food, and have been known to run a fever, but are otherwise generally very healthy. As they become very tame, they can, if managed with common sense, be as much part of the family as the dog or cat and as much fun.

I think the swimming pool and dietary info is very interesting.
 

Yvonne G

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I was really getting into it until I read that the tortoise can "run a fever." That just made her lose all credibility with me. Cold blooded animals don't have the where-with-all to make their own body temp rise. They need the sun for that.

Mary Sadler actually lives in South Africa, but she is a journalist by trade, and I really don't see anything in her bio that lets us know she actually knows something about tortoises. She is best known for her writings about the Kalahari desert.
 

Edna

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Well I'm running to the market right now to pick up some hyena feces, since my yard isn't stocked with those!
 

zzzdanz

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The diet section is pretty good.In the first sentence she questions why people have the need to feed something the tortoise wouldn't find in the wild...2 sentences later she's telling the reader(s) to feed them dog food.
 

Yvonne G

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TortyQueen said:
Well I'm running to the market right now to pick up some hyena feces, since my yard isn't stocked with those!

LOL!!!
 

Laura

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Hyena feces.. is probably where wild torts get a lot of thier calcium from. Hyenas eat bone and thier feces are very white.
other then that.. whoppie,, on the article..
 

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This is the first instance I have seen of people saying to feed a leopard dog food. Every place I read, dog food is on the "never feed list". Some good info, but need to pick and choose what you listen to and what you dismiss. In my opinion!
 

Greg T

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Some of this info goes against everything else we have heard for Leopards. Mine do not like to swim. I have never found them in their large water dish outside, even in the heat of summer.

Give them eggs and dog food? Can you give them protien overload? I do agree with the eating feces, as mine will chomp on my dog's piles if I don't clean them up fast enough.

I would argue the growth rate too. Mine grew quickly as younsters, but as they got bigger, the weight gain slowed some, which is opposite of what is said in the article.

Always interesting to read new information because it causes you to re-think what you have learned and even challenge it sometimes.
 

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I kinda like this because it's different than anything I've ever come across, even the outdated stuff. Leopards swimming could be something. Certainly the article isn't enough to make me question how I care for my tortoises, like the fever thing was a bit silly along with a dozen other things. But here's something from someone who actually lives in Africa...about as real as it gets to "natural" right? There may be something of value in this. Where did you find the article? any idea when it was written?

Where's Balboa? Someone send this to him and highlight where she says they eat snails and millipedes!
 

exoticsdr

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yagyujubei said:
Here's the link to the page. http://www.southerncape.co.za/biology/animalia/reptilia/tortoise_keep.php
I would be interested in a vet's opinion on the fever statement. I have read of this in reptiles before. Maybe in South Africa, fever just means sick.

I'm sorry....too busy laughing..hahaha

No, a tortoise cannot run a fever, unless there is an endothermic species somewhere in South Africa..if so, I want some, will surely cut down on my winter electricity bill.

Doc
 

Neal

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I'm no engrish teacher, but some of the wording in the article doesn't seem like "proper" english as we speak it in the states. I think it's possible she meant that running a fever actually meant simply that the tortoise was sick.
 

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Lots of contradiciton in this article, makes me think the writer is not actually a keeper, just somebody compiling other peoples data in to what they "think" is acurate. In fact that person cannot be a keeper, if they are they have done the reptile keeping population of South Africa a huge dis-service.

Either way the article is trash and in my opinion an old world way of keeping a tortoise.

***Also if you look at the areas where a large carnivore like a hyena is going to inhabit without running into people, and the area that tortoises inhabit, you realize that there must a huge shortage of hyena poop for all these leopard tortoises.
 

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Things are "different" over there. Even the language. They keep things in the boot or bonnet of their cars. They don't have backyards, they have gardens. There is this whole time measuring thing that is very confusing using the words, now, just now, and now now. They pronounce jalpeno just like its spelled. They just don't serve breakfast on the entire African continent. Etc...

I saw lots of SA leopards just living loose on people's property or enclosed in the "garden". I didn't see any with their own swimming pools though.
 

yagyujubei

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Glad I amuse you doc:
physiology of feverFever is extremely well preserved throughout evolution. It has been found in numerous phyla and is estimated to be more than four million years old [13]. Fever is seen in mammals, reptiles, amphibians, and fish as well as in some invertebrates. Not only is it found in endothermic (warm-blooded) animals, it is also seen in ectothermic (cold-blooded) animals [11]. In response to infection, lizards will elevate their body temperature by selecting a warmer microclimate [14]. The febrile response, defined by Plaisance and Mackowiak, is a "complex physiologic reaction to disease involving a cytokine mediated rise in core temperature, generation of acute-phase reactants, and activation of numerous physiologic endocrinologic and immunologic systems" [15].

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC270667/[hr]
Here's another. :http://faculty.bennington.edu/~sherman/fever and MR.pdf[hr]
Another: http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/content/19/1/295.abstract[hr]
Sorry, here's the other link: http://faculty.bennington.edu/~sherman/fever and MR.pdf
 

exoticsdr

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yagyujubei said:
Glad I amuse you doc:
physiology of feverFever is extremely well preserved throughout evolution. It has been found in numerous phyla and is estimated to be more than four million years old [13]. Fever is seen in mammals, reptiles, amphibians, and fish as well as in some invertebrates. Not only is it found in endothermic (warm-blooded) animals, it is also seen in ectothermic (cold-blooded) animals [11]. In response to infection, lizards will elevate their body temperature by selecting a warmer microclimate [14]. The febrile response, defined by Plaisance and Mackowiak, is a "complex physiologic reaction to disease involving a cytokine mediated rise in core temperature, generation of acute-phase reactants, and activation of numerous physiologic endocrinologic and immunologic systems" [15].

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC270667/[hr]
Here's another. :http://faculty.bennington.edu/~sherman/fever and MR.pdf[hr]
Another: http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/content/19/1/295.abstract[hr]
Sorry, here's the other link: http://faculty.bennington.edu/~sherman/fever and MR.pdf



Unless you wrote the article, you have written nothing to amuse me. I did find the hyena comments extremely funny
You solicited the thoughts of a veterinarian and I gave you mine, rather accurately I would estimate IF you are comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Believe me, I am very aware of the physiology of "fever" and it doesn't happen in ectotherms as it does in endotherms. The physiology of the "why" an animal, warm or coldblooded, would want to run a "fever" may be the same, but the physiology of the "how" the fever is initiated and maintained is totally different.
 

yagyujubei

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TO exoticsdr:



I was quite surprised that you went out of your way to laugh at my statement. I'm not here for anyone's amusement. I merely stated that "fever" in reptiles was something that I had heard of before. I then posted a couple of links to show that I may not be the idiot you have made me out to be, and there were, if fact articles relating to fever in ectotherms. I am not a scientist and don't pretend to understand all I have read. I will not, however be laughed at on a public forum. I won't ask for your opinion again.
 

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exoticsdr said:
I'm sorry....too busy laughing..hahaha

No, a tortoise cannot run a fever, unless there is an endothermic species somewhere in South Africa..if so, I want some, will surely cut down on my winter electricity bill.

Doc

My impression here was that the good Dr. was having a chuckle after reading the article. The article is very amusing, especially if the reader is actively trying to translate it into a language we understand - oh, such as American English. I don't thing he was laughing at you, yagyujubei.
 

exoticsdr

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yagyujubei said:
TO exoticsdr:



I was quite surprised that you went out of your way to laugh at my statement. I'm not here for anyone's amusement. I merely stated that "fever" in reptiles was something that I had heard of before. I then posted a couple of links to show that I may not be the idiot you have made me out to be, and there were, if fact articles relating to fever in ectotherms. I am not a scientist and don't pretend to understand all I have read. I will not, however be laughed at on a public forum. I won't ask for your opinion again.

What exactly about "Unless you wrote the article, you have written nothing to amuse me. I did find the hyena comments extremely funny" did you not understand?
I evidently hit the wrong button and it just quoted your statement about having heard about fever in ectotherms....that is NOT what I was laughing about and I'm pretty sure I made that clear on that point when I realized that I may have offended you. Believe me, I have much better things to do with my time than try to make someone look like an idiot on a public forum especially when that person has said absolutely nothing to deserve it, that is not my style. I will be sure to refrain from posting on your forum posts so we can avoid future misunderstandings.
 
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