Influence of the calcium content of the diet offered to leopard tortoises

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Neal

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I came across another great article. This one is titled "Influence of the calcium content of the diet offered to leopard tortoises (Geochelone pardalis)".

Just reading the abstract you can get the idea of how critical calcium supplementation is in captive tortoises.

I spoke with Danny quite awhile ago about supplementing and he suggested that tortoises might require A LOT more supplementing than is often recommended, and this study seems to confirm what he has said.

It is written specifically about leopard tortoises, but it can be applicable to other tortoise species.

http://africantortoise.com/leopard.pdf
 

TylerStewart

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Interesting write-up.... Almost more interesting to me is why anyone would start such a study not knowing if the tortoises were clear of hexamita parva LOL.... Something like that might skew your results if it's killing tortoises during a study that essentially measured growth rate and bone density!
 

Neal

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TylerStewart said:
Interesting write-up.... Almost more interesting to me is why anyone would start such a study not knowing if the tortoises were clear of hexamita parva LOL.... Something like that might skew your results if it's killing tortoises during a study that essentially measured growth rate and bone density!

I thought that was kind of odd too...considering they came from the group that was given the recommended dosage. Arguably the control group.
 

wellington

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May be a stupid questions. But the scientific talk throws me. So in lay mans terms, what exactly is this saying we should do? Use more calcium carbonate along with the best diet we can give, which would be more weeds, cactus, etc. However seeing most or all of us also need to use grocery greens, should we also be adding veggies as they had mentioned them along with bone, stones, etc. along with greens? OF COURSE I WOULD NOT ADD STONES, DUH:p But should we add the other foods mentioned and high rate of the calc. Carb.?
Can anyone simplify this so I know what to change to have my tort in the best condition.
 

Neal

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I don't think any real suggestions are made in the article, and I would be cautious of making any changes based on this article alone for a couple of reasons:

1 - As Tyler pointed out, the results may have been skewed by factors these researches didn't bother to consider.
2 - I would not consider the diet they fed to be common based on what we often suggest here. I actually think they chose a crappy diet to conduct this study...but it is a few years old.

I only share it as it sparked an interest in me on a topic I have studied for awhile and still feel like I'm treading water.
 

LLLReptile

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That was certainly an interesting article to read. Highlights how difficult it can be to truly know what is required for certain animals to thrive in captivity.

I believe they intentionally fed a somewhat poor diet so that they could study just the effects of supplements. In the one group that had parasites the way it seems to come across is that the tortoises were treated for the parasites prior to the study starting, but relapsed when it started. I may be wrong.

Creating studies like this is incredibly difficult, as there are so many factors that go into how an animal metabolizes and processes vitamins and minerals. Regardless, it was still interesting to read, and interesting to consider.

-Jen
 

TylerStewart

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LLLReptile said:
I believe they intentionally fed a somewhat poor diet so that they could study just the effects of supplements. In the one group that had parasites the way it seems to come across is that the tortoises were treated for the parasites prior to the study starting, but relapsed when it started. I may be wrong.

Creating studies like this is incredibly difficult, as there are so many factors that go into how an animal metabolizes and processes vitamins and minerals. Regardless, it was still interesting to read, and interesting to consider.

-Jen

You're probably right about the poor diet.... I just don't see why it's so hard to come up with 24 leopards that don't (and never have) had parasites.... They weren't even that old. You'd think if they were treated in the past, they'd just find some that had never been treated. In a study like this, I would guess that even having been treated for a bug in the recent past (recent because they were so young to have already been treated) that being treated could still mess with the eventual results, even if the bugs were eliminated. An upset stomach (or sterile gut from the meds) at the time of the study is going to affect the growth rates.

Also, if it was me, for accuracy and stability, I would have used all babies instead of mixing younger with older. Give a group of 50 babies 6 months to grow, and pick 24 of them at 6 months old that all had the same weight. They apparently were in mixed-size groups, and stresses from larger ones against smaller ones might have affected results.... Sorry, maybe I'm just thinking too deep on this one :)
 

foxboysracing

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Interesting.....
First, i think I should mention that I am a researcher and conduct clinical drug trials(on humans) daily as part of my job. This study made sense to me due to understanding how research works. So I thought I would put in my two cents...
Research is about testing a theory or a plan, and not about the true health needs that are best for a person or an animal. That being said...I would assume they didn't use babies due to the higher mortality rate. They probably thought that if they got juveniles and gave all of them meds for parasites before the study they would have a clean slate across the board. What they didn't plan on was that sadly several of the torts in group 2 were either reinfected from one who still had them, or whose initial dose was not enough. That does skew the data. Most of the time all data is thrown out for that group when that happens. They still had a few in that group, so they obviously chose to still study them. They state that they did choose a poor diet, so that they could clearly display the calcium effects. Sadly, in research, the torts health is not their first concern. Those of us who do not do research don't feel this way, and are often bothered by this. Luckily it was only a short term study. Sadly, they euthanized 4 of the tortosies. :(
After reading this, if I were to simplify it down, I would probably recommend somewhere between groups 2 and 3, which would be doubling the recommending dose of calcium if the torts were on that type of diet. Group 3 grew the best at 3 times the recommend levels, but they also had health concerns from excess calcium. Group 2 had thin shells and other issues. Although if I were to be honest, I would assume that maybe all of them could have been reinfected with the parasite (to some extent) from one who had it. I wonder if they would have had better growth if that had not been the case???
I find it interesting, but I am not sure I would make any major changing to your torts diets due to this study. I WOULD make sure they get enough calcium, but I think most of work hard at that already.
Enough Said by me.... :) :)

:tort: Dawn :tort:
 
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