Indoor room for my large torts

[lazybfarm]

So I am going to build an indoor room for wintering my 2 aldabras and 1 sulcata , for the long term. My idea is to take in an area 16' X 20' inside a corner in my shop, the exterior walls are concrete block , so my idea is to build 2 walls in the corner out of concrete block , to have a room that is 16x20, I plan on having 3 separate areas within this room, I can use concrete blocks for dividers between each tort and they can be moved around as needed. , I am in north alabama so the winters are not really bad but it does get cold I can usually let them go outside for a few hours each week even in winter. I plan on 8' ceiling height . Maybe some skylights for natural light/UV. I plan on insulating the walls with foam board and covering with plywood, the ceiling will be easy to insulate as I am going to just build it with 2x10 s. I think I will install a mini-split HVAC system to maintain air temps. I am also thinking about thermostatically controlled heat mats. My main question is what to do with the floor. It is a concrete floor . I was thinking about building the floor up with 2x6s and installing insulation in the cavities and installing plywood . Maybe under floor heating . How will this hold up to the big torts over time ? Can I just use cypress mulch over the plywood ? Tom, Mark84, what do you think about this plan? How would you do it if you wanted to do it once and do it right? Any ideas or advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks to everybody here for so much information and expertise!

 

[Maro2Bear]

Greetings. Ambitious plan ?

Concrete is a heat sink….so, yes you will want something there above the concrete floor. I would look into these horse stall mats. You can lay these down as a barrier, then pile cypress mulch and other substrates on top. Kane heat mats on top too (not covered by mulch). Problem with plywood is over time it will mold, mildew & soak up junk. The horse mats won’t & are meant for heavy use.

➡️➡️ https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/4-ft-x-6-ft-x-3-4-in-thick-rubber-stall-mat

Good luck!

 

[lazybfarm]

Great idea about the horse stall mats ! I think that is the way to go . Maybe 2 layers of the mats with cypress mulch on top . A Kane heat mat for each tortoise . It would be easy enough to clean out too. Thanks!
I knew you guys would have the answers !
I will have a tortoise barn at my new house, but I am thinking that I will keep them here during the winter. It is in my shop where I will be everyday , I can take care of them and let them go outside when it is nice . In the winter it usually dark when I leave my house in the morning and dark when I get home. So it would be hard to let them go outside during the warmest part of the day.

 

[Markw84]

@lazybfarm

I like your plan. I am devising plans now as I am in the process of getting some acreage to make a tortoise preserve. So have been putting a lot of thought into this very subject for my own build.

I like the raised wood, insulated floor. I would treat the floor with a floor covering of some waterproof type and then lay horse stall mats. A single layer of the mats is plenty. They are 3/4" thick and made from the same material as tire rubber. Withstand the hooves, and shoes of horses - so easily hold up under giant tortoises. I use them in my Galapagos night house with absolutely no issue. I actually covered the horse mats with a 4" layer of orchid bark to improve humidity in the night box. You will need to contend with humidity as well as when we have to raise outdoor temperatures that much for our indoor temperature, the humidity ends up extremely low.

I would make the room into a complete enclosure. Meaning ambient lighting, heating, plus a night house inside the room. Room to bask and feed in the room, and then a night box to provide added night heat and humidity for sleeping. Good ambient lighting and basking zone for raising core body temps on cold days, and keeping the whole room at about 72°. Then have the night box kept at 84°. You could even let the room cycle from 75° daytime to 66° nighttime as the night box would provide night heat. Much less energy to heat a night box. Much less energy to keep the large room quite a bit cooler. Also provides a good photoperiod closer to 12/12 to keep better activity cycles, and still a nice dark "hide".

You might want to go as big as possible for the room. With heated night boxes for an adult Aldabra, you need something in the 4x6 range for each tortoise. 4x4 for a sulcata. So think about heating only that amount of area to 84° or so, then having the big room for daytime activities-basking, eating, ambient lighting, etc. I don't know if your group may grow as time goes by, but why not make it as big as possible now to accommodate possibilities? Much easier to make bigger now, than remodel later.

 

[wellington]

Are they able to go outside every day?
A 16x20 is a little smaller then my 2 stall garage. That would not be big enough to house 3 large tortoises in 3 seperate enclosures and still have a decent amount of room to roam if there are days they would not be able to go out. You mention a few hours a week not a day. I would imagine that size for one large Aldabra to be housed over winter maybe 2.
@ALDABRAMAN hopefully will chime in.

 

[Yvonne G]

I give three thumbs up to markw's advice!!

 

[Tom]

@lazybfarm What size are the tortoises now, and how soon do you plan to move?

Brilliant suggestions from both Marks, but my concern is the size. 16x20 is too small for even medium members of either species, and that's if they had the whole thing. Divided by three, and this is just not enough space them to spend months of their time in.

@Markw84 and I have both been studying up on giant tortoise care, and touring zoos and facilities across the country. I've been very fortunate to meet some super cool people and see some amazing tortoises. One thing that has become apparent with the island giants is that they need room to roam. I suspect small enclosures, along with grocery store food diets, to be one of the main causes of problems with both Galops and Aldabras. Its not "scientifically proven", but its becoming pretty darn obvious. When I see a small flat pen, I see orthopedic problems with giant tortoises. When I see large pens with hills and obstacles in them, I see healthy giants. Due to their fossorial lifestyle, I can't say the same thing applies to sulcatas. I've seen them in relatively small areas, living primarily in their burrows, and they seem fine.

Its just not easy keeping tropical giants in a temperate climate.

 

[Tom]

I give three thumbs up to markw's advice!!

HOLY COW! Did you find a severed thumb somewhere??? Last I counted you only had two!!!

 

[lazybfarm]

Thanks everybody for the great advice ! I think I will go with 20 x 24 so I wont wish it was bigger in a couple of years, The idea to raise the floor and insulate, cover with plywood, seal, cover with horse stall mats, then cypress mulch , will work . I will heat the room with a mini split and heat the night boxes with RHP and kane mats. My new house has 4 acres with a 5' tall concrete block covered with stucco fence around the whole properety, this is the main reason we bought the house ! with about 2 acres dedicated for the torts.they will have a lot of room to roam. This land is not flat and will be great excercise for the big guys. Starting next spring, the aldabras [ which are @ 20lbs now] will be at the new house, they will have a tortoise barn with night boxes there, and will spend most of the year there. [ march thru november] This indoor room will be used for about 3 months a year, but , they will also go outside as much as possible during this time too. Our winters here in north alabama can be cold but there are many 65-70 degree days in the middle of winter so they can go out. I have found that even if the air temps are in the 60's, if the sun is shining the torts still get hot and search out some shade, Their shell temps can easily reach 100 degrees on a 60 degree day. Thanks again for all the knowledge that you guys have given us all , most of us could not have the success we do without you all !

 

[Maggie3fan]

I am far from expert...however that never stops me from giving my opinion...This shed was outfitted for Sulcata...it's 20'x12 feet...heated with an oilfilled radiator type heater for ambien heat...basking bulbs and che for direct heat. There is a large sleeping box with a Stansfield pig blanket everything on timers or thermostats...It snows and ices here periodically...but evey morning I open a doggie door for the 1 Sulcata I have now...she's small 36 lbs I think... she was badly pyramided but still a h*llcat...lol

but why I'm commenting is the shed has a subfloor, then stuffed with insulation, then plywood. No substrate...so much easier to clean. I have also noticed thru the years in my experience the tortoises would rather poop outside then in...
I also tried to use stall mats...but my tortoises like to chew if you get the cheap ones like I did...make sure they are hard rubber...this is the sleeping box with pig blanket...Bob was 100+ lbs and he slept in it, and every other larger tort I'v had seems to really like it...

 

[Markw84]

@lazybfarm Sounds like you have a good plan. I was just out your way a month ago visiting my daughter who lives about 15-20 miles from you. Although you do get a few very cold nights, your weather should be OK for your plan. I can tell you that at least with Galapagos, and with sulcatas, they do quite well with a good heated house, and then access to graze even when temps are in the 40°s if it is sunny. Their house must be in the 80°s, and they do go into the house a lot during the day when it is cool and the sun gets blocked by clouds. I just now checked after reading your post, and this morning dropped to 42° and just did reach 49° outdoors 9:00AM. I had just opened the door to the Galap house 30 min ago. The shell of one of Galapagos out basking reads 98° right now. I've monitored this closely over the past 2 years and find they are very good at keeping warm and using the sun. It seems they are black for a reason! So as long as the sun is out, they do very well and actively graze most of the day. If it is cloudy, they come out for limited time, but spend most of the day in their house. Once over 10 lbs or so, they have enough thermal mass to graze for 30 min or so. But this is where I like to have their house set up with ambient lighting and basking lights for additional daytime heat. They do just fine grazing and cooling, but need to be able to get that body heat back up for the vast majority of the day and night.

Tortoise microbiome is composed of thousands of different bacteria that is essential for good digestion and some of that bacteria is very temperature sensitive. Allowing a tortoise to cool for too long and not be able to heat core temps to over 80° for a good part of every day will impact digestion and growth in younger tortoises. At temperature much below 80°, some of that bacteria will start to die off! That's where it seems many people make mistakes in keeping the large tortoises. They see how Aldabraman keeps his tortoises and will copy. Yet the base ground temps in S Florida is 77°. Your base ground temperature in N Alabama is 59°. My area is 64°. Chicago area is 47°. Even Phoenix is 60° even though most associate that with a high temperature. So without a heated house and then an insulated floor, there is a big issue with a tortoise keeping proper internal core temperatures to support metabolic activity. Outdoors, without the sun, the base ground temperature will greatly affect what a tortoise will experience as their body shape is designed to use the ground to moderate temperatures.

I will also qualify this by sating I have not directly worked with Aldabras. From talking extensively with folks who have worked with both Galaps and Aldabras, I consistently hear Galaps tend to be more active in using night boxes, shade and sun to control body temps. I surmise from the natural range in the Galapagos being much cooler than the Seychelles, the Galaps have evolved strategies to actively use the sun much more to raise body temps parts of the year where temps are much lower than the Seychelles every experience. So I'm sure you will watch the behaviors of yours and adjust accordingly. I constantly monitor my group of Galaps and if I find one that is not quite 10 lbs yet, and doesn't seem as good at getting back to the house or stays in shade or hiding consistently too long -and lets core body temps drop - I adjust and move indoors that winter. The normal thermoregulation response needs to kick in with size and overcome the hiding/security reflex of the young tortoise.

So long response to say I think you are on a great track and will have great tortoises. And with that setup, you will find they can do much better in cooler weather than you currently think.

 

[lazybfarm]

Thanks everybody for the great advice ! I think I will go with 20 x 24 so I wont wish it was bigger in a couple of years, The idea to raise the floor and insulate, cover with plywood, seal, cover with horse stall mats, then cypress mulch , will work . I will heat the room with a mini split and heat the night boxes with RHP and kane mats. My new house has 4 acres with a 5' tall concrete block covered with stucco fence around the whole properety, this is the main reason we bought the house ! with about 2 acres dedicated for the torts.they will have a lot of room to roam. This land is not flat and will be great excercise for the big guys. Starting next spring, the aldabras [ which are @ 20lbs now] will be at the new house, they will have a tortoise barn with night boxes there, and will spend most of the year there. [ march thru november] This indoor room will be used for about 3 months a year, but , they will also go outside as much as possible during this time too. Our winters here in north alabama can be cold but there are many 65-70 degree days in the middle of winter so they can go out. I have found that even if the air temps are in the 60's, if the sun is shining the torts still get hot and search out some shade, Their shell temps can easily reach 100 degrees on a 60 degree day. Thanks again for all the knowledge that you guys have given us all , most of us could not have the success we do without you all !

 

[lazybfarm]

met the block guy today, the walls will be laid this weekend ! Nothing like getting on with it ! I will post some pics when we get started

 

[lazybfarm]

I think I will also attach some of the horse stall mats on the wall , the mats are 4 ' wide , so Im thinking about putting them up 4' high all around. I am also thinking about using Flex Seal to seal the plywood, Also what do you guys think about using treated wood in the floor, covered by plywood then sealed with flex seal, covered by horse stall mats , so the tortoises would never come in contact with it, What color should the inside of the room be?
Dark or light color ? I was thinking about white . Do the tortoises care , or need a certain ambiance ?

 

[lazybfarm]

Thanks Mark , I really do appreciate your help and advice .

 

[lazybfarm]

I have decided to make my new tortoise room a sealed enclosure. It will only have 1 opening , a 44" wide commercial steel door. I plan on building the floor up with treated 2x6's on 16" centers, then I will put down styrofoam board insulation on the concrete, then fill the cavity with fiberglass insulation. Then I will cover the floor with 3/4" plywood This should prevent any heat loss through the floor. I am going to fill the new concrete block walls with bead insulation. The exterior block walls will have 2x4 strips installed and foam board [ maybe spray foam depending on the cost ] installed between the 2x4's , then 3/4" plywood over the exterior walls. Now that it is all sealed, I am going to paint he inside ,floor ceiling ,walls with white flex seal. I will then cover the floor and up 2' on the walls with a heavy duty pond liner. Then I will cover the floor and 4' up on the walls with heavy rubber horse stall mats. I can then cover the floor with cypress mulch and it can be cleaned out like cleaning a horse stall, I can then keep the substrate damp by spraying it down , or spray off the tortoises any where in the enclosure. I plan on using some LED grow lights to grow plants for them in the room in pots . I will need some kind of UVB light . Does the grow lights produce any UVB? I would need a strong light to be mounted on the 8" ceiling. Maybe put in a UVB light in their night boxes ? My idea for heat is to use a mini split system , or maybe some kind of greenhouse heater ? not sure yet , any ideas on heat would be great. Keep in mind that does not get brutally cold here, mostly 50's during the day in winter for highs, sometimes its 70 and sometimes its 25 for highs , but this would be only for 1-2 days either way on the extremes. So the ceiling will have an exhaust fan to pull in some fresh air when needed, maybe on a timer to change some of the air out a couple of times a day . Each tortoise will have their own area in this room using retaining wall blocks for walls so that can be moved adjusted as needed. Within each area will be a heated night house with RHP and kane mat.
So those are my thoughts this morning on how I want to do it, If any body has any suggestions or advice , please feel free to chime in. The block guy is coming saturday to start on the walls.

 

[lazybfarm]

My idea for the mini split is that I could also use it to cool off the room if was getting too hot , but maybe just install a thermostat control for the exhaust fan to come on when it gets above 90 or so.

 

[TeamZissou]

I plan on using some LED grow lights to grow plants for them in the room in pots . I will need some kind of UVB light . Does the grow lights produce any UVB? I would need a strong light to be mounted on the 8" ceiling. Maybe put in a UVB light in their night boxes ?

Typical grow lights generally do not produce UV. UV producing LEDs are relatively new and expensive; I believe Mark has been testing some recently. You'd probably need the most powerful Arcadia T5 bulbs and likely need to hang them much lower than the 8 ft ceiling so that you generate an adequate UVI at the tortoise level. That said, if they will live outside for most of the year, UV may not be necessary at all.

Will a full grown Aldabra fit through a 44" door? Some of the enclosures I see by Aldabraman look to have a mini garage door that is considerably wider.

 

[lazybfarm]

Here is a pic of the inside of my shop. The new room is going to be in the back left corner . The room where their enclosures are now is at the back right corner, you can zoom in and see where I added it to the existing office area . I use a large cart to take them outside

 

[lazybfarm]

Here is the pic