Indoor "Enclosure" Ideas

[Wewt]

He's a lovely tort and it's clear he's dear to you. Question: is there any reason he couldn't have a kiddie pool full of some diggable substrate in his sleeping corner in lieu of a dog bed? I use orchid bark in my desert torts' indoor enclosure, and they just love burrowing into it at night. Something about digging in just makes torts so happy.

I wish I could, but I can't. My place is a rental and they visit every three months. They know I have a tortoise, and are fine with us keeping him like this. He digs in blankets and in the dirt if he finds some when we are out for walks, but I've never really seen him dig too much. My mom had him for a month while we moved and he lived in her yard almost the entire time, with lots of open flower beds and such. He never dug in them at all. *shrug* I don't know if he's ever had anything to dig in. His digging efforts are hilariously misguided.

Thanks for the feedback, though. In the future perhaps I can get a kiddie pool for the garage area, as I do like the idea of him having somewhere to dig.

Here is a cute video of him running around in the old condo, eating carrots, being curious and adorable.

 

[Jd3]

The proper indoor enclosure would still have dirt and substrate and heat and the like. You've made your decision this is good for him but it isn't. No justification you offer passes for allowing a tort live a concrete jungle life.

Zoos that do not offer naturalistic habitats are indeed crap. If they cannot house the animal indoors and out with more than a cement pad and bars, they should not be in the zoo business.

There is nothing enriching about this for the tort. They have evolved for a million years. They know where they are supposed to be. They show so much energy and thrive much better when given what they need.

I understand your desire for a sulcutta, but that doesn't make it right or good for the animal. He's living In temps that would make digestion slow, with no burrow or nest. Sleeping on a dog bed...

It sounds like a dog would be more suited for this. And then you can actually potty train him and stop living in tortoise feces.

I'm willing to bed your local department of health would actually have a high level of concern on this. Especially since it is a rental.

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Why in the world couldn't you have a kiddie pool of dirt because it is a rental? We're talking a plastic tub full of dirt... Certainly if there ok with tort feces an ruin ground into the floor and walls they'd be ok with a dirt tub that might catch some of it...

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The fact that he hasn't been allowed to dig much just makes this more sad. Not further justification for not allowing. Him to have the proper habitat.

 

[thatrebecca]

He's a lovely tort and it's clear he's dear to you. Question: is there any reason he couldn't have a kiddie pool full of some diggable substrate in his sleeping corner in lieu of a dog bed? I use orchid bark in my desert torts' indoor enclosure, and they just love burrowing into it at night. Something about digging in just makes torts so happy.

I wish I could, but I can't. My place is a rental and they visit every three months. They know I have a tortoise, and are fine with us keeping him like this. He digs in blankets and in the dirt if he finds some when we are out for walks, but I've never really seen him dig too much. My mom had him for a month while we moved and he lived in her yard almost the entire time, with lots of open flower beds and such. He never dug in them at all. *shrug* I don't know if he's ever had anything to dig in. His digging efforts are hilariously misguided.

Thanks for the feedback, though. In the future perhaps I can get a kiddie pool for the garage area, as I do like the idea of him having somewhere to dig.

Here is a cute video of him running around in the old condo, eating carrots, being curious and adorable.

I wasn't able to see the video -- it appears as a still photo to me. I would love to watch him scramble around.

It sounds like your landlord is a big part of the reason for your setup. I bet if they're reasonable they would understand a kiddie pool with substrate would actually be safer for their property, because the tort will have something to burrow into besides floorboards and walls. If they still balk, you might offer to add a sum to your security deposit. It looks like you keep your house very clean and you're probably a good tenant, so a landlord would be inclined to keep you happy.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

I have a russian tortoise that was a surrender that also lived with a rabbit. The rabbit chewed 7 of this poor guys toes off.
My point is just because a zoo does it, doesn't make it right.

 

[Wewt]

The proper indoor enclosure would still have dirt and substrate and heat and the like. You've made your decision this is good for him but it isn't. No justification you offer passes for allowing a tort live a concrete jungle life.

Zoos that do not offer naturalistic habitats are indeed crap. If they cannot house the animal indoors and out with more than a cement pad and bars, they should not be in the zoo business.

There is nothing enriching about this for the tort. They have evolved for a million years. They know where they are supposed to be. They show so much energy and thrive much better when given what they need.

I understand your desire for a sulcutta, but that doesn't make it right or good for the animal. He's living In temps that would make digestion slow, with no burrow or nest. Sleeping on a dog bed...

It sounds like a dog would be more suited for this. And then you can actually potty train him and stop living in tortoise feces.

I'm willing to bed your local department of health would actually have a high level of concern on this. Especially since it is a rental.

---

Why in the world couldn't you have a kiddie pool of dirt because it is a rental? We're talking a plastic tub full of dirt... Certainly if there ok with tort feces an ruin ground into the floor and walls they'd be ok with a dirt tub that might catch some of it...

---

The fact that he hasn't been allowed to dig much just makes this more sad. Not further justification for not allowing. Him to have the proper habitat.

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It sounds like we are just going to have to agree to disagree. The only thing he is lacking is 24/7 access to dirt and grass and a burrow. It's not that big of a deal. When you think about it, we evolved in the exact same habitat as the Sulcata, yet we live in urban areas and are just fine. All of your arguments are based on your own feelings, which do not do anything to help my tortoise or give me ideas. A small tub of dirt won't do anything to make his life better, nor is there room for one in my house. I said above that I'll consider putting one in my garage, once I find the proper materials and have some money in the bank.

You assume a heck of a lot of things about a situation you don't understand in the slightest. I feel like you are plugging your ears and saying, "lalalalala" to anything I've counter-argued.

Not that it matters, but it isn't a "dog bed" he is sleeping on, anyways. Not sure why this is such a big deal. It's the plastic mat out of a dog kennel, a warm heating pad, and a bath mat. I have the plastic mat there because often times he will pee and poo in his sleep and I don't like cleaning stuck poo off the ground.

There is never dried or old poop in my house. I know the second he has done it, I clean it up, and we go on about our days. It doesn't bother me, nor my fiance, nor anyone who comes over to my house, even when they bring their kids. Stop judging. Come over for supper. I'll cook up some salmon.

Oh, also: lots of zoos house things like polar bears and penguins in conditions where they cannot supply them with year-round snow or cold temperatures, but I don't see you having a problem with this. It's the same scenario. The animals are still happy, but they don't always get what they want.

I wasn't able to see the video -- it appears as a still photo to me. I would love to watch him scramble around.

It sounds like your landlord is a big part of the reason for your setup. I bet if they're reasonable they would understand a kiddie pool with substrate would actually be safer for their property, because the tort will have something to burrow into besides floorboards and walls. If they still balk, you might offer to add a sum to your security deposit. It looks like you keep your house very clean and you're probably a good tenant, so a landlord would be inclined to keep you happy.

There simply isn't room in the main floor of my house, and it would actually be a lot messier than having him wander around like normal. Like I said above, I'll consider putting one in the garage. I like my tort happy and didn't feel like he had the urge to dig or was missing out. When he is in his giant fluffy blankie I hear him make dig sounds for a minute and then he falls asleep. Digging seems more of a reflexive soothing thing than a necessity or fun thing that they do. My tort prefers to climb on or around things for his "fun" activity.

The video should work.. If you click on it it should take you to my photobucket account and then play for you. :/

 

[Tom]

I had to think a lot about this one before commenting. It's a complex issue and I really do see both sides of this coin, and both sides make some valid points. I have to agree with Jd3 on the one hand. This does not fall within the realm of what I would find acceptable for housing a large tortoise. I would never own a giant species of tortoise in a frozen climate at all, much less in an apartment or condo that doesn't have its own large yard. If one wanted to be generous, a tropical tortoise wandering around a cold floor with only a small hot spot can be described as "less than optimal". If one didn't wish to be generous, worse could be said. That fact that its a burrowing species does not help the case, and blankets are not a substitute in my mind. The fact that its the size of a normal three year old at eight is very telling too.

On the other hand, I admire your courage for posting this knowing you'd get criticized. I respect the fact that you are doing what you think is best and going all out to give your tortoise the best life you can. There are a whole lot of tortoises that do not receive anywhere near as good of care as your tortoise does, and so, you get an "A" for effort.

In reality any captive situation is a compromise at best. There are those who think that ANY form of captivity is horrible and a total disservice to the animal, no matter how well it is cared for, fed and housed. So when I compare your housing situation to mine, or to any of the many torties that live near me with large outdoor pens, sunshine, natural grazing and the ability to burrow, your hardwood floors and doggy bed, make me very sad for your tortoise. However, when I compare your tortoise's situation to some dumb kid with their tortoise on rabbit pellets in a 10 gallon tank with some wilted, three day old, untouched iceberg lettuce and a red bulb that is on 24/7, your situation is glorious.

What I am saying is that, all of this is relative. Its all opinion and subjective. It all depends on one's frame of reference and point of view. There are many reasons why your tortoise might be undersized. The fact that I would not house one this way, does not mean that no one else should, or that they are a bad person for doing it. MY own enclosures are artificial too, and someone could come along and not pick all the things I do "wrong" as well.

The difficult question for me is this: Would I rather see your tortoise living this way, but with an obviously loving caring owner that goes to great lengths and effort to meet the tortoises needs in a less than ideal housing situation, or would I rather see your tortoise left to its own devices, basically neglected with an uncaring owner in a back yard in Phoenix? So hard to say. A caring concientious owner is a must. You have that covered very well. But the proper living environment is also a must, and I don't think you have that covered at all.

Personally I wish you well and hope your tortoise stays healthy. I also hope that you end up somewhere with a large yard that you can make into a nice tortoise enclosure for at least part of the year.

 

[Wewt]

I had to think a lot about this one before commenting. It's a complex issue and I really do see both sides of this coin, and both sides make some valid points. I have to agree with Jd3 on the one hand. This does not fall within the realm of what I would find acceptable for housing a large tortoise. I would never own a giant species of tortoise in a frozen climate at all, much less in an apartment or condo that doesn't have its own large yard. If one wanted to be generous, a tropical tortoise wandering around a cold floor with only a small hot spot can be described as "less than optimal". If one didn't wish to be generous, worse could be said. That fact that its a burrowing species does not help the case, and blankets are not a substitute in my mind. The fact that its the size of a normal three year old at eight is very telling too.

On the other hand, I admire your courage for posting this knowing you'd get criticized. I respect the fact that you are doing what you think is best and going all out to give your tortoise the best life you can. There are a whole lot of tortoises that do not receive anywhere near as good of care as your tortoise does, and so, you get an "A" for effort.

In reality any captive situation is a compromise at best. There are those who think that ANY form of captivity is horrible and a total disservice to the animal, no matter how well it is cared for, fed and housed. So when I compare your housing situation to mine, or to any of the many torties that live near me with large outdoor pens, sunshine, natural grazing and the ability to burrow, your hardwood floors and doggy bed, make me very sad for your tortoise. However, when I compare your tortoise's situation to some dumb kid with their tortoise on rabbit pellets in a 10 gallon tank with some wilted, three day old, untouched iceberg lettuce and a red bulb that is on 24/7, your situation is glorious.

What I am saying is that, all of this is relative. Its all opinion and subjective. It all depends on one's frame of reference and point of view. There are many reasons why your tortoise might be undersized. The fact that I would not house one this way, does not mean that no one else should, or that they are a bad person for doing it. MY own enclosures are artificial too, and someone could come along and not pick all the things I do "wrong" as well.

The difficult question for me is this: Would I rather see your tortoise living this way, but with an obviously loving caring owner that goes to great lengths and effort to meet the tortoises needs in a less than ideal housing situation, or would I rather see your tortoise left to its own devices, basically neglected with an uncaring owner in a back yard in Phoenix? So hard to say. A caring concientious owner is a must. You have that covered very well. But the proper living environment is also a must, and I don't think you have that covered at all.

Personally I wish you well and hope your tortoise stays healthy. I also hope that you end up somewhere with a large yard that you can make into a nice tortoise enclosure for at least part of the year.

I was wondering if you would show up in here, haha!

I understand where you are coming from but, no offence, none of you have experience in this particular area of raising a tortoise. I love to see my little man out running free in the tall grass, too, and I give him that as much as I can- much more than most people would do in my circumstances.

The bottom line here is that I did not snatch up a hatchling from California and steal him away to Canada. I purchased my tortoise from Edmonton, Alberta (google map this place) and brought him to Abbotsford, British Columbia (google map this, too). I've already brought him to a warmer, more tropical location. Already working on that. Nothing else I can do aside from taking a hippie freedom ride to California and setting him loose in Tom's backyard.

Another thing is that my floors have never been cold. In the condo I was on the sixth floor, so there were many rooms below me to provide insulation. In my townhouse my garage is below me, which I have already said is warmer than the rest of the house, and so is also providing insulation. If you watch the video it is not indicative at all of a cold, unhappy tortoise who is starved of some sort of alternative stimulus.

My tort loves his blankie. When he sees it in the corner he will go over to it and climb on it and make his little diggy moves and I'll giggle and cover him up. It's super cute. I suppose it's hard to believe that this is what I've found as an alternative, but it's the best I've got.

Even when we get him his pool of substrate he can't sleep in there. I don't trust the temps in the garage to be stable-- he sleeps upstairs under a blanket on top of his heat pad.

I invite any skeptic to take a vacation to BC and visit my house. BC is pretty- you won't regret it.

Oh, also: He had access to a backyard for 10 hours a day for a month and didn't dig at all. I don't think he is missing it.

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Here is a picture of him zonked out on a towel in the bathroom of our old condo. In the condo he liked to sleep in the bathroom with his blankie because the tile was heated and he felt enclosed with the darkness and all.



Looks like a very content, happy tortoise to me. If he wasn't happy, would he be all stretched out and comfy like that?

 

[Tom]

I understand where you are coming from but, no offence, none of you have experience in this particular area of raising a tortoise.

About this, you are correct, so no offense taken at all. Your other points and assertions are all arguable, but it will just boil down to personal opinion in the end.

Again, I admire your dedication and devotion, and wish the best for you and your tortoise.

 

[Wewt]

I understand where you are coming from but, no offence, none of you have experience in this particular area of raising a tortoise.

About this, you are correct, so no offense taken at all. Your other points and assertions are all arguable, but it will just boil down to personal opinion in the end.

Again, I admire your dedication and devotion, and wish the best for you and your tortoise.

Thanks, Tom! In the end we all want the same things: A healthy, happy tortoise. We've just found different ways to achieve this.

Also, I just found out about his stunting a few days ago in a thread about cuttle bones. Came as a shock to me, as neither of my two vets told me that this was a possibility, even after inspecting his faeces. Because of this I will be adding a second light to expand his warm area and offer him an ultra-warm spot right in the middle of his mat. His stunting began long before I got him, and has just continued. Aside from being small for his age, he is perfectly healthy. My vet wasn't concerned about his size at all, so I think it might be a commonality amongst Canadian Sulcatas.

 

[Jd3]

The proper indoor enclosure would still have dirt and substrate and heat and the like. You've made your decision this is good for him but it isn't. No justification you offer passes for allowing a tort live a concrete jungle life.

Zoos that do not offer naturalistic habitats are indeed crap. If they cannot house the animal indoors and out with more than a cement pad and bars, they should not be in the zoo business.

There is nothing enriching about this for the tort. They have evolved for a million years. They know where they are supposed to be. They show so much energy and thrive much better when given what they need.

I understand your desire for a sulcutta, but that doesn't make it right or good for the animal. He's living In temps that would make digestion slow, with no burrow or nest. Sleeping on a dog bed...

It sounds like a dog would be more suited for this. And then you can actually potty train him and stop living in tortoise feces.

I'm willing to bed your local department of health would actually have a high level of concern on this. Especially since it is a rental.

---

Why in the world couldn't you have a kiddie pool of dirt because it is a rental? We're talking a plastic tub full of dirt... Certainly if there ok with tort feces an ruin ground into the floor and walls they'd be ok with a dirt tub that might catch some of it...

---

The fact that he hasn't been allowed to dig much just makes this more sad. Not further justification for not allowing. Him to have the proper habitat.

---

---

It sounds like we are just going to have to agree to disagree. The only thing he is lacking is 24/7 access to dirt and grass and a burrow. It's not that big of a deal. When you think about it, we evolved in the exact same habitat as the Sulcata, yet we live in urban areas and are just fine. All of your arguments are based on your own feelings, which do not do anything to help my tortoise or give me ideas. A small tub of dirt won't do anything to make his life better, nor is there room for one in my house. I said above that I'll consider putting one in my garage, once I find the proper materials and have some money in the bank.

You assume a heck of a lot of things about a situation you don't understand in the slightest. I feel like you are plugging your ears and saying, "lalalalala" to anything I've counter-argued.

Not that it matters, but it isn't a "dog bed" he is sleeping on, anyways. Not sure why this is such a big deal. It's the plastic mat out of a dog kennel, a warm heating pad, and a bath mat. I have the plastic mat there because often times he will pee and poo in his sleep and I don't like cleaning stuck poo off the ground.

There is never dried or old poop in my house. I know the second he has done it, I clean it up, and we go on about our days. It doesn't bother me, nor my fiance, nor anyone who comes over to my house, even when they bring their kids. Stop judging. Come over for supper. I'll cook up some salmon.

Oh, also: lots of zoos house things like polar bears and penguins in conditions where they cannot supply them with year-round snow or cold temperatures, but I don't see you having a problem with this. It's the same scenario. The animals are still happy, but they don't always get what they want.

I wasn't able to see the video -- it appears as a still photo to me. I would love to watch him scramble around.

It sounds like your landlord is a big part of the reason for your setup. I bet if they're reasonable they would understand a kiddie pool with substrate would actually be safer for their property, because the tort will have something to burrow into besides floorboards and walls. If they still balk, you might offer to add a sum to your security deposit. It looks like you keep your house very clean and you're probably a good tenant, so a landlord would be inclined to keep you happy.

There simply isn't room in the main floor of my house, and it would actually be a lot messier than having him wander around like normal. Like I said above, I'll consider putting one in the garage. I like my tort happy and didn't feel like he had the urge to dig or was missing out. When he is in his giant fluffy blankie I hear him make dig sounds for a minute and then he falls asleep. Digging seems more of a reflexive soothing thing than a necessity or fun thing that they do. My tort prefers to climb on or around things for his "fun" activity.

The video should work.. If you click on it it should take you to my photobucket account and then play for you. :/

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I actually pretty clearly stated in the post you quotes that zoos that offer nothing more than bars and a cement cage are crap.

Funny you should compare this to keeping polar bears or penguins in improper homes. That is what I thought of when I saw it.

I do not support that type of husbandry. Modern, conservation minded zoos do not either.

Digging is instinctive. They are borrowers and like to burrow to sleep. Cold hard floors and a blanket don't simulate that.

Our jobs as animal keepers is to provide the best possible solution for them. That means providing adequate temps and simulated environments. Sure, Canada is cold as balls. I get that. Our summers in South Dakota are a little warmer, but our winters have a colder average temp than most of BC too.

What I'm saying is that just because it is the best you want to offer doesn't mean it is what the tort deserves.

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I understand where you are coming from but, no offence, none of you have experience in this particular area of raising a tortoise.

About this, you are correct, so no offense taken at all. Your other points and assertions are all arguable, but it will just boil down to personal opinion in the end.

Again, I admire your dedication and devotion, and wish the best for you and your tortoise.

Thanks, Tom! In the end we all want the same things: A healthy, happy tortoise. We've just found different ways to achieve this.

Also, I just found out about his stunting a few days ago in a thread about cuttle bones. Came as a shock to me, as neither of my two vets told me that this was a possibility, even after inspecting his faeces. Because of this I will be adding a second light to expand his warm area and offer him an ultra-warm spot right in the middle of his mat. His stunting began long before I got him, and has just continued. Aside from being small for his age, he is perfectly healthy. My vet wasn't concerned about his size at all, so I think it might be a commonality amongst Canadian Sulcatas.

I would guess It is more of an issue that the vets just don't know better. If they don't treat a lot of large tortoises and are very current with their care, most vets only are able to find the obvious in your face problems and treatments.

 

[laney]

Your tort seems happy, well adapted and loved. I too live in a climate that isn't ideal for outdoor living and take my torts to parks on nice days. I think in an ideal world we would all have huge, warm ideal acres of land for our torts but until we do we just have to do our very best for them, which you are.
He is so clearly a part of your family and I love that.

 

[gieseygirly]

I think the way your raising your sulcata is amazing!!! So cool!! You are doing the best you can and if he's healthy and happy then that's all that matters. People are way too quick to judge on here. I think it's great the way you have it set up.

I agree with lindseyjordan10, especially the quick to judge part. I think you are doing the best you can in your given situation.

 

[Wewt]

I actually pretty clearly stated in the post you quotes that zoos that offer nothing more than bars and a cement cage are crap.

Funny you should compare this to keeping polar bears or penguins in improper homes. That is what I thought of when I saw it.

I do not support that type of husbandry. Modern, conservation minded zoos do not either.

Digging is instinctive. They are borrowers and like to burrow to sleep. Cold hard floors and a blanket don't simulate that.

Our jobs as animal keepers is to provide the best possible solution for them. That means providing adequate temps and simulated environments. Sure, Canada is cold as balls. I get that. Our summers in South Dakota are a little warmer, but our winters have a colder average temp than most of BC too.

What I'm saying is that just because it is the best you want to offer doesn't mean it is what the tort deserves.

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I would guess It is more of an issue that the vets just don't know better. If they don't treat a lot of large tortoises and are very current with their care, most vets only are able to find the obvious in your face problems and treatments.

---

Even the best of the best zoos cannot provide snow year round! World-renown zoos like the San Diego zoo have their polar bears in a simulated environment where they have everything they could ever want, minus snow. Not a big deal. They are happy, healthy, etc.

Alright, you deal with the cold. How have you solved this problem for your Sulcata? I don't see any solutions coming from you, just your opinions and bashings. Not helpful in the slightest.

Again, the floor is not COLD. Again, he sleeps on a big soft blanket on a warming pad. You ignore all of this in order to continue to be angry. Hilariously immature of you. You also ignore that he had access to as much digging space as he could have wanted-- OPEN FLOWER BEDS -- and chose not to dig. When he was tired he'd toodle over to the door and sit there waiting for my mom to bring him in, and then she would set him in the hall way and he would toodle to his room she had set up, find his blanket, and then nuzzle into it. Obviously, if he so craved digging he would have made himself a burrow and slept in it instead of opting for his blanket in the house.

I agree that our jobs are to find the best possible solution for them. I feel that I have. The only thing that has been recommended to me in this thread is to add a kiddie pool with substrate for him to play in, which I will find a way to do and make it happen. What have you brought to the table? Nothing.

If my vet didn't know, how was I supposed to know? The issue of him being stunted is news to me. I say it again: it began BEFORE I had him, and simply continued. This is akin to someone raising a Sulcata hatchling in the old methods and then discovering, 10 years later, that a hot and humid environment was better.

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Your tort seems happy, well adapted and loved. I too live in a climate that isn't ideal for outdoor living and take my torts to parks on nice days. I think in an ideal world we would all have huge, warm ideal acres of land for our torts but until we do we just have to do our very best for them, which you are.
He is so clearly a part of your family and I love that.

Thank you, I really appreciate it. We all wish for our torts to have the big back yard and the perfect burrows, but most of us aren't lucky enough. We do what we can!

I think the way your raising your sulcata is amazing!!! So cool!! You are doing the best you can and if he's healthy and happy then that's all that matters. People are way too quick to judge on here. I think it's great the way you have it set up.

I agree with lindseyjordan10, especially the quick to judge part. I think you are doing the best you can in your given situation.

Thanks! He's healthy, happy, and gets to run around and explore new areas outside every day. Tortoises in big outdoor enclosures don't even get that.

 

[IBeenEasy]

I think the way your raising your sulcata is amazing!!! So cool!! You are doing the best you can and if he's healthy and happy then that's all that matters. People are way too quick to judge on here. I think it's great the way you have it set up.

<3 Thank you!

When I first got my tortoise I thought everyone had them this way...

I don't mean to sound crass, or rude, but where does your tort go potty? My dog took 3 months to housebreak and stepping in his mess was troublesome, and he only weighed 12lbs lol. (I also should wear my glasses more often when I walk around barefoot..)

Regardless if it is conventional or not, I think both set ups were beautifully decorated and incorporated into your home. It's hard with animal furnishings to always do that.

Haha! Very common question. He poops and pees on the floor. I am trying to train him to go on his pad, but I feel that these efforts are futile. We first pick/mop it up with a cloth or paper towel, and then we steam our floors every night. Sometimes he likes to run around and poop quite a bit, and this is when we stick him in the garage to play.

Thanks for the kind words! I like the plant set up a lot better, but it's too dark in the house for them.

Salmonella is present in most tortoise intestinal tracts. In a normal situation this is contained and not on our living surfaces.

You have not magically adapted or evolved your tortoise to not want proper temps, or proper habitat.

It hasn't grown as much as it should in part because the temps are too low. You said it yourself. It went a long time barely moving... Because it was cold. They stop functioning when they aren't warm enough

You seem like you've read enough to know this isn't a good idea but gave yourself some justification as to how it is good for you and the tort. It isn't in either case.

Animal furnishings are about being proper for the animal. A dog bed does not replace a burrow.

People aren't too quick to judge. The opposite. They are afraid to hurt someone feelings and aren't open to how bad something like this is for everyone involved.

We haven't even talked about the other risk factors.

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Co-habitating in a space with tortoise pee and poop all over is disgusting. I don't care how often you clean it.

Like I said. You've decided that you have enough info to think this is good, but it really isn't. The space gets as low as 68 degrees? So it has to muster up the strength to seek out a 2 sq foot warm spot...

But she it gets there it can't burrow or even rest on soil or grass. It gets a dog bed. That usually dogs don't even like.

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Sorry, I hate to disagree with you. You are more likely to get salmonella from a dog than you are from a tortoise, which is why they are legal to keep in BC but turtles are not. My house is very clean- I'd lick the floors to prove it to you. Besides, it's really not anyones business how clean someone else's house is, as long as the animals and children are comfortable.

Your argument is substantial, of course. I wish my tortoise lived in a huge savannah grassland with a 20ft burrow where he could walk five miles a day with the sun on his back and all the grass he could ever want. Is anyone providing this in captivity, other than zoos or people who live on acreages? No, I don't think so. I make up for my lacking of a burrow by getting him out into new, interesting places for him to explore, and letting him walk in a straight line for two hours at a time if he wants to. Most tortoise owners can't do that.

So, if we were to go with your argument, all zoos are terrible places for animals. No polar bear should be allowed out of Northern Canada, no penguins should be allowed out of the South pole, and no tigers or sloths or anything like that should be in captivity. That's just not how it works.

My tort was born and raised in Canada with cold conditions, and I am doing everything I can to ensure that he is the healthiest, happiest tort possible, aside from shipping him over to Africa. Being a little growth stunted isn't the end of the world- he got an A+ from the vet who said there was nothing she would change about the way I was raising him.

Also: lots of people post outdoor enclosures with igloo-type dog shelters that are just fine. My tortoise sleeps with a big, fluffy blanket under and on him with a warm pad underneath. He goes right to sleep and is safe, warm, and secure, just as if he were in a real burrow.

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I ABSOLUTELY LOVE WHAT YOUR DOING HERE... YOUR BEING DIFFERENT AND UNIQUE...YOU LOVE YOUR TORT .. AND I BET IF YOU CAN ASK THE TORT HIM SELF..HE WOULD SAY HE WOULD RATHER BE ON A DOG BED AND HAVE THE FREEDOM OF THE HOUSE..THEN BE LEFT ON A LITTLE TABLE OR TUBBA WEAR BOX WITH SOME DIRT..I CAN GUARANTEE THAT...TORTS NEED THAT WALKING SPACE...YEA I KNOW TORTS LIKE TO BURROW AND THEY NEED SUBSTRATE...BUT HELLO PEOPLE....WE HAVE BEEN CAPTIVE BREEDING THESE ANIMALS FOR A REASON..I COULD UNDERSTAND THIS BEING REALLY WRONG FOR A WILD ANIMAL...BUT THE TORT IS OBV CAPTIVE BRED..AND IF HES NOT HES BEEN AROUND PEOPLE SINCE BEFORE HE CAN REMEMBER AND HE LOOKS HAPPY..I WISH MORE PEOPLE WOULD DEDICATE THE TIME TO THEIR ANIMALS TO TRAIN THEM TO BE COMFORTABLE IN THE HOUSE AND AROUND PEOPLE..THERE MILLIONS OF TORTS RIGHT NOW THAT ARE STUFFED IN A DIRTY LITTLE SHOE BOX..THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WE SHOULD BE DEBATING.(( AND SORRY FOR THE CAPS..IM NOT YELLING..IM JUST ON MY WORK COMP AND THERES ONLY CAPS LOL))

 

[Jd3]

If your ambient temp is 70 degrees it is cold for HIM. He is cold blooded. That is one of the big parts you're missing. If your floor isn't heated and the room is 70 all the time, he really does have a small tiny microclimate to stay warm on.

You did not evolve a tortoise that loves in cooler areas. It is a large part of why he is so small.

He might have chose not to dig during his 1 month of outdoor life. That doesn't mean we should choose for him to not have anything remotely natural for him....


The San Diego zoo keeps polar bears in chilled water and offers indoor sanctuary. They get water and rocks and toys to interact with.

Keeping a giant tortoise on a hard floor in a cool environment Is a lot more like this than the Sam Diego zoo keeping polar bears in a state of the art enclosure. http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/zoos-good-or-bad-3.jpg

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

I'm sorry .I was misled by the title of your thread. My mistake.

 

[Jd3]

Also, comparing an outdoor enclosure with a dog igloo to an apartment floor with a dog bed is sort of like comparing Ferrari to a pinto. Both have wheels right?

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I'm sorry .I was misled by the title of your thread. My mistake.

"Enclosure" in quotes was right...

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I'm not sure why people want to commend this on being so "dedicated". If it was a nice appropriate enclosure that was 70 degrees it would still be too cold. It doesn't matter what the enclosure is if you're not meeting the basic requirements. Dedication and commitment to keeping the tort in conditions not suitable doesn't make it honorable.

Having done such extensive research I'm surprised yesterday is the first time you ever thought that 70 degrees Fahrenheit was too cool. I have a hard time finding something that doesn't suggest a warmer temp.

You're unwilling to concede that this isn't what is best for the animal. Finding suitable housing is what should be in the agenda. If that means you can't house it them so be it.

I want to have another kid. I can't afford to heat the bedroom hell sleep in though so he will have to adapt. He won't know Ny better though because he won't ever experience anything different, so it is ok. Right? I think I can adapt him to eat only Cheerios. Again. Since he won't ever know a proper diet it isn't a big deal. I'm doing the best I can. I can't afford to heat the space and I can't afford to feed. Him better. At least he's not living with those dirty people down the street. They would keep him outside and then he'd be even colder. I'm committed to it though, so I deserve credit for that.

 

[MildredsMommy]

Let me start off by saying I am by no means an expert-that is why I love this site. So this is only my two cents. I can clearly see that Wewt truely loves her tortoise. I don't think anyone really debates THAT issue. I was a bit dismayed to see a few posts that people on this forum are "quick to judge" and "rude". I have personally never experienced that from ANY member-in fact, I have had the opposite-and I have asked some DUMB questions-trust that-and actually a lot of the long time posters here helped save my RF Jerry Lee's life. Here is my thought: I have to agree with JD3 as far as the available care goes-it just isnt good for the tortoise. And to cut to the chase, (in case anyone asks) I personally think zoos are inhumane-I am an animal rights advocate, and I do not think Sea World or dancing bears or keeping Polar Bears in AZ is in ANY way mindful of the needs of animals-its all about $$$. But I digress. I live in Texas. I have about 1/2 an acre for a backyard. its a nice even temp here year around.(for the most part) I have always wanted a Sulcatta and have had ample opprotunities to buy/adopt one, but I am simply not equipped to handle that type of tortoise's needs. For that matter, I would love to have a mini goat as well, but I have to think about the fact that while I would love it to bits, provide it wonderful vet care, and play with it as much as possible-at the end of the day its just not good for the goat. I think the point some people are trying to make is that it is obvious you love the tortoise and have gone out of your way to try to adapt your lifestyle for him-but unfortuatley, HIS life style should not be adapted to yours. I by no means encourage anyone to give up an animal, but in this case, for the good of the tortoise, you would see if someone from a sanctuary or in another part of the country might adopt him so he can enjoy his life the way nature intended. AGAIN...just my two cents.

 

[Wewt]

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE WHAT YOUR DOING HERE... YOUR BEING DIFFERENT AND UNIQUE...YOU LOVE YOUR TORT .. AND I BET IF YOU CAN ASK THE TORT HIM SELF..HE WOULD SAY HE WOULD RATHER BE ON A DOG BED AND HAVE THE FREEDOM OF THE HOUSE..THEN BE LEFT ON A LITTLE TABLE OR TUBBA WEAR BOX WITH SOME DIRT..I CAN GUARANTEE THAT...TORTS NEED THAT WALKING SPACE...YEA I KNOW TORTS LIKE TO BURROW AND THEY NEED SUBSTRATE...BUT HELLO PEOPLE....WE HAVE BEEN CAPTIVE BREEDING THESE ANIMALS FOR A REASON..I COULD UNDERSTAND THIS BEING REALLY WRONG FOR A WILD ANIMAL...BUT THE TORT IS OBV CAPTIVE BRED..AND IF HES NOT HES BEEN AROUND PEOPLE SINCE BEFORE HE CAN REMEMBER AND HE LOOKS HAPPY..I WISH MORE PEOPLE WOULD DEDICATE THE TIME TO THEIR ANIMALS TO TRAIN THEM TO BE COMFORTABLE IN THE HOUSE AND AROUND PEOPLE..THERE MILLIONS OF TORTS RIGHT NOW THAT ARE STUFFED IN A DIRTY LITTLE SHOE BOX..THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WE SHOULD BE DEBATING.(( AND SORRY FOR THE CAPS..IM NOT YELLING..IM JUST ON MY WORK COMP AND THERES ONLY CAPS LOL))

Thank you! Glad you see the benefits of the way I am keeping my tortoise. Like you said, and like I pointed out earlier, different isn't necessarily bad! I knew that I would receive some flack from the people here because they are all so particular with their pets and have likely never seen a tortoise living as mine does. The natural thing to do is recoil and assume my tortoise is unhappy, unhealthy, and improperly cared for.

In reality, my tortoise has a lot of things most other tortoises don't. Like you said, he gets a huge space to wander around in on a day-to-day basis, plus he gets 6 day a week, 2-4 hours at a time in a big field or a park where he can walk in a straight line as long as he wants. No matter how big or awesome your outdoor "natural" enclosure is, you are unlikely to be able to provide that for your tortoise. I can. I don't have a burrow, but I am closer to meeting this need of my Sulcata than most people are.

My method is good in some ways, bad in others. It's a lot of work, but I get many many benefits that others don't.

Positives to living with your tort:
- You get to hear their cute sleeping nose whistle while you are reading on your couch.
- You get to toss scrap veggies from your supper on the floor and have it be magically cleaned up.
- You get to lay down on the floor and have your tort climb on your legs all day if you want to.
- You get to take your tortoise to other people's houses, out in public, etc. and have him be 100% comfortable being petted by five little kids all at once without being stressed.
- My tortoise doesn't even flinch when you go to pet him or pick him up.
- Oh, and you get to hear every single wet fart your little heart desires. <3

I love my tort.

 

[KimC90]

I think this is great that youve adapted your home for your tortoise. Everyone has different ideas of how they should be raised but youre very correct, aside from shipping them back to their homeland, do the best you can. There is an obvious difference in having your tortoise sitting in a tiny little box with no lighting, feeding petstore pebble food and giving your tortoise the best life possibly since it doesnt live in its homeland.
I had recently posted my guys new tank after hours of work on it and I was so proud of his new home but I was instantly told everything bad. I spent my weekend feeling horrible for my little guy and wondering if I should just give him up. Thank you for your post, it helps remind me that I can still give my little dino the best I can and make sure he stays healthy until we can upgrade to a house and I dont need an african savannah to be a responsible tortoise owner