Indoor and Outdoor Enclosures!

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christopherkearney1

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I am trying to put together an enclosure for my guys inside. I have an eastern box and an eastern mud that house together. How much room will they need? What can I use for substrate? What plants are safe? What are the heating requirements?

Also, I am trying to get together an outdoor encloseure for everyone to play in. I am thinking of using cinderblocks for the barrier. Do I need to put in ground wire? There will be a pond, in there will be a yellow belly, painted, eastern mud, eastern box, russian, sulcatta. What plants are good to plant for them? should i put a filter in the pond? Should I make a ramp for the pond? I have banana trees, a butterfly tree, and a canna lily tree that needs planting. If they dont work tell me what does?

I am also trying to start a turtle/tortoise rescue. So far everyone i have is special, except for the russian. If you need to rehome or found someone that needs a home please let me know. I can pick up to an extent otherwise we will have to arrange shipping.

Thank you so much in advance!
 

StudentoftheReptile

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If the outdoor pen is spacious enough, I don't see a problem housing the sliders, mud turtle and the box turtle together. Just provide PLENTY of foliage and shelters for hiding. Since you have so many aquatic species, have a LARGE pond with plenty of basking spots and hiding places to accommodate them all.
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However, I would NOT house them together with the tortoises, nor would I house the two tortoises together.
 

batchick

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Hi Christopher. This is one of those questions that comes up regularly. Have a search through the forum. People are concern about disease transfer etc. I don't know anything about this, having only one tortoise, but people seem to be quite adamant. (as I'm sure you'll find out soon enough)
 

christopherkearney1

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I have been pretty fortunate about mixing species. Not saying that nothing can go wrong. I had a guinea pig and a rat live together for a numbe of years. I just don't want anyone to be alone. I hope I didnt sound anal when I asked why. I'm just new to these torts. I had Shellie the sulcata for so long that she was just part of the routine. So these new guys present a lot of questions and learning.
 

lynnedit

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I am sure all of these torts and turtles are better off with you now!
There is some concern about disease transmission: different species of tortoises have different kinds of bacteria, etc., that they live with and are natural to them. However, transmission to a different species when those species are not used to it can be very harmful.
Kind of the idea of the Native Americans dying from measles, because they had never been exposed to it in the past at all.
That said, there does seem to be examples of keepers maintaining different torts together, but it is not common.
It sounds as if your enclosure is going to be wonderful.
Here is a good site with information about safe plants:
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp
 

christopherkearney1

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Thank you do much! That is so helpful!

I think they're better here! The Russian and the Eatlstern box had never been out of there same enclosure nor had they ever been soaked. The lady I got them from had tn for a year and they never soaked them. I love them.
 
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Maggie Cummings

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Forgive me for saying this but someone who does not know how to take care of those animals he already has cannot just up and say he's gonna start a rescue. I respect you for taking in the ones you have, but now you need to lean how to care for them, what kind of enclosure to keep them in and mostly to not mix species. Each species has pathogens indicative of itself and those same pathogens could make another turtle or tortoise sick or dead. Tortoises and turtles in the wild don't show that they are sick so if one of those pathogens has made another sick it won't show for a long time. I'm not trying to be mean, I think it's great for you to have all those chelonia, but now you must learn how to care for them. You don't even know what kind of substrate they need. Each species has needs of it's own self. A yellowbelly is vastly different from a Sulcata. So I would suggest now that you research each species that you have and set each one up the way he is supposed to live. That will take you quite a while to create the enclosure and to learn what to feed each one and what kind of lighting/heating each one needs. If you truly want to set up a successful turtle and tortoise set each one that you all ready have in his own habitat and learn what to feed them. Do all that before you move on. Researching the care of what you have is the first step in rescue, you don't just bring a bunch of tortoises and turtles home and declare yourself a turtle and tortoise rescue.
 

christopherkearney1

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Okay you don't have to be so rude. That's the whole reason I asked this is do I could learn. It's not like everyone is bombarding me with their turtles. I was hoping for some direct answers like the ones I've gotten. Yours wasn't needed at all. I have a life outside of my turtles. So I don't need your input.
 

StudentoftheReptile

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christopherkearney1 said:
Okay you don't have to be so rude. That's the whole reason I asked this is do I could learn.

I do not think she was being rude at all. She even stated she wasn't trying to be mean. She brought up very good points that if you TRULY are wanting to learn, and put aside your sensitive pride for a moment, you would glean the importance of her words. Maggie is trying to help you and the animals in your care. Sometimes when you learn things, you find out information that is different than what you would like to hear. What you decide to do with that information is indicative of your wisdom and maturity level.

It's not like everyone is bombarding me with their turtles.

What do you think will happen when you open your "rescue" to the public? Will you be ready for any and every type of chelonian someone might drop on your doorstep at 6am in the morning (and they will, rest assured)? Do you not think it is in the best interest of the animals for YOU to provide the best care possible and research what that care is BEFORE undertaking the daunting task of running a rescue?

I was hoping for some direct answers like the ones I've gotten. Yours wasn't needed at all.

WRONG. You just wanted enough members to say it was okay to mix species together. Obviously, the responses you received are not what you expected or desired, so now you're pitching a fit. I've seen it a million times.

I have a life outside of my turtles. So I don't need your input.

I have a life, too. But it doesn't mean that I disregard the superior knowledge and experience of others at the expense of the animals I keep, just because of my pride or because I don't like being told what I'm doing is wrong.

Your reaction is somewhat understandable. No one likes to be informed that the way they are currently keeping their pets may be wrong. But that is how we learn (what you came here to do, right?). Just because you do not readily see a problem, does not mean a problem does not exist or cannot occur. I assure you (as well as many others here) problems can happen very quickly. As my dad has always said in reference to cars, "Maintenance is always cheaper than repairs." The same mentality applies to keeping animals. Providing proper care and husbandry in the longrun, even if it may cost a little extra money and time and work up front, will still save you money, because medical and veterinary expenses are much more costly.

You think you don't need Maggie's (or anyone else's) input? I disagree. Every post you've made so far seems to indicate that you need all the input you can get.

I just don't want anyone to be alone.

With the exception of perhaps redfoots, most turtles and tortoises generally prefer to be alone. They are solitary animals. So don't worry about them not having a "buddy."

christopherkearney1 said:
I have been pretty fortunate about mixing species. Not saying that nothing can go wrong.

So why take the risk? In my experience and observations, the main reasons anyone ever wants to mix species (in this case, reptiles) together is as follows:
1.) They cannot afford the money or space for additional caging. My response? If you cannot afford a proper cage for each animal, you shouldn't own that animal.
2.) Some mistaken notion of preventing solitude. With the exception of some species, reptiles are antisocial animals. They do perfectly fine without buddies.
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It is the general consensus that mixing species (or even the same species) can cause more problems than benefits:
1.) Stress. For most of the solitary species, simply being in the presence of another animal in a confined space can cause stress in your reptile. I have personally witnessed this on many occasions. Stress can cause a lack of appetite, lethargy, as well as a diminished immune system. This is especially in situations of dominant vs subordinant animals. For example, sulcatas are very territorial, and will often bully any other turtles or tortoises in the pen. They even attack inanimate objects like lawnmowers and air conditioners! This can cause stress even for the dominant animal, because they always are on "alert" wanting to defend their ground against all other cagemates.
2.) Disease and parasite transmission. Enough said. Should be pretty self-explanatory, but many people still apparently don't care. I'll let other members who have had issues with this elaborate.

Again, the only main advantages for mixing species are to the keeper, not the animals. The only exceptions are the VERY few social species, such as redfoots, and some lizards species.



RESCUES

I have seen this time and again, where someone relatively young in the herp community starts collecting a handful of reptiles and at some point decides they want to start a "reptile rescue."

Here are my thoughts, coming from 20 yrs of herp experience, including working in petstores, vet clinics, volunteering at animal shelters and being a board member of our local exotic animal rescue.
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I certainly do not want to come across as discouraging anyone from rescuing animals. There's obviously a need for it. BUT...there are many things to consider before opening yourself up to this venue. There's a lot more to being an animal rescue than just saying "I'll take any in free reptiles that no one wants." That's not rescuing; it's borderline hoarding.

1.) By being a rescue, this by default means that you can provide any rescued animals with the most ideal care possible. You would think this is a no-brainer, but I have seen in many cases, the "rescues" are really no better conditions than the homes the animals came from (sometimes worse!) Again, these were cases of non-legit rescues that were merely people just trying to get free pets. Also, there are a few situations where the individuals were good-intentioned, but acquired more animals than they could handle because they cannot say "no." (i.e. animal hoarders). Bottom line: do your homework and don't "rescue" beyond your means. There will be times when you simply cannot take in an animal because you do not have the space, or you are not knowledgeable enough to provide proper care. Learn to say NO.
2.) Going hand-in-hand with the above, you need to be able to afford veterinary expenses. This is part of a rescue. You WILL receive rescues that require medical attention, and part of providing proper care is making sure those rescues get that medical attention. Bottom line: if you're not willing to, or cannot afford, to take rescued animals to the vet, consider some other venue for helping animals. Starting your own rescue will not work.
3.) Also related to #1 - be open-minded and willing to LEARN! Talk with other reptile rescues who have succeeded. Pick their brains. Or better yet, instead of trying to tackle such a huge venture on your own, get involved with another local rescue and perhaps become a "foster" home for reptiles. This can offset your own expenses, and you can still help out with rescued herps.
 
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