Indian and Burmese Stars Kept Together?

evilsharky

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Hi All!

I come across many posts mentioning that different species of tortoises should not be kept together e.g (leopard and star) but I haven't found anything on different stars e.g (Burmese and Indian stars) in the same enclosure.

Not planning to do this but curios to see if anyone has/had experience with this? Or is it taboo to keep them together as well?

Thanks for your reply!
 

zovick

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Hi All!

I come across many posts mentioning that different species of tortoises should not be kept together e.g (leopard and star) but I haven't found anything on different stars e.g (Burmese and Indian stars) in the same enclosure.

Not planning to do this but curios to see if anyone has/had experience with this? Or is it taboo to keep them together as well?

Thanks for your reply!
They are two totally different species, so the same thing applies to them. IE, they should not be kept together.
 

zovick

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I see. I thought it would be OK since the stars are so similar. Thanks for the info!
The two are similar, but from different countries so would have different bacterial/parasitic loads if WC, which is one of the problems. Bacteria and parasites not harmful to one species can cause problems in another species.

Additionally, even if you are talking about CB animals which would normally have less bacterial/parasitic loads than WC ones, Burmese Stars are a much more robust tortoise and would very likely intimidate the Indian Stars to the point of the Indian Stars not getting enough food.

Plus, you would definitely not want to interbreed the two species, so it is best to just keep them away from each other for that reason also.
 

jcase

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The two are similar, but from different countries so would have different bacterial/parasitic loads if WC, which is one of the problems. Bacteria and parasites not harmful to one species can cause problems in another species.

Additionally, even if you are talking about CB animals which would normally have less bacterial/parasitic loads than WC ones, Burmese Stars are a much more robust tortoise and would very likely intimidate the Indian Stars to the point of the Indian Stars not getting enough food.

Plus, you would definitely not want to interbreed the two species, so it is best to just keep them away from each other for that reason also.
Pure curiosity here, has there been a case of hybridization between the two? What about between radiata and other species? Since I know both burmese stars and radiated tortoises are commonly mixed with other species in Asia, judging from all of the facebook photos I've seen.
 

zovick

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Pure curiosity here, has there been a case of hybridization between the two? What about between radiata and other species? Since I know both burmese stars and radiated tortoises are commonly mixed with other species in Asia, judging from all of the facebook photos I've seen.
I am not aware of any hybrids of Burmese/Indian (or Sri Lankan) Stars, but I have seen pix of hybrid Radiated and another species. I think it was sulcata, but not sure. I don't look kindly on hybridization so didn't pay much attention while on my way to vomiting in the toilet.

In this country, hybridizing any species which is listed on one's CBW Permit is forbidden, so Radiateds could not be hybridized by a permit holder. Guess that will become less and less of a mandate going forward, since the USFWS is granting very few, if any, permits now.
 

jcase

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I am not aware of any hybrids of Burmese/Indian (or Sri Lankan) Stars, but I have seen pix of hybrid Radiated and another species. I think it was sulcata, but not sure. I don't look kindly on hybridization so didn't pay much attention while on my way to vomiting in the toilet.
Agreed, again it was mostly a 'morbid' curiosity
 

jcase

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Apparently the stars do hybridize and people are breeding them on purpose :/
 

zovick

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Apparently the stars do hybridize and people are breeding them on purpose :/
A mistake in my opinion. These may get released into the trade and unsuspecting people could buy hybrids rather than "pure" specimens. This has happened with Indian and Sri Lankan Stars already, and it is hard to know when a true pure Sri Lankan Star is being offered now.
 

jcase

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A mistake in my opinion. These may get released into the trade and unsuspecting people could buy hybrids rather than "pure" specimens. This has happened with Indian and Sri Lankan Stars already, and it is hard to know when a true pure Sri Lankan Star is being offered now.
Agreed
 

TammyJ

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I agree about the wrongness of mixing species and even worse, breeding them (hybridization). It's just not natural and not meant to happen and with good reason!
 

jcase

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I agree about the wrongness of mixing species and even worse, breeding them (hybridization). It's just not natural and not meant to happen and with good reason!

In some species it absolutely is natural, just uncommon, but certainly not in stars. Not excusable in these circumstances I believe. I hope they are infertile.
 

TammyJ

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In some species it absolutely is natural, just uncommon, but certainly not in stars. Not excusable in these circumstances I believe. I hope they are infertile.
Could you explain in what circumstances and with what species it would be "natural" to create hybrids? Just seeking education! Thanks.
 

jcase

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Could you explain in what circumstances and with what species it would be "natural" to create hybrids? Just seeking education! Thanks.
It has been a long time since school, im a security researcher not a biologist, and im winging this from memory, so forgive any errors.

Species and subspecies are just a human construct, these animals know no difference. If it happens in natural, and not as the result of interference from another species (eg humans relocating them, or housing them together), I would consider it natural.

For a long time the term species was defined to mean two creatures that couldn't produce fertile offspring. However we know that fertile hybrids do exist.

Natural hybridization can even be considered part of evolution, if the hybrids are fertile, I bet future DNA testing will absolutely show us that many species are the results of hybrid populations that long separated from their founding populations (euro-asian humans possible belong in this category).

Probably the best example I can give without looking anything up (aka forgive me if I'm wrong) would be Cuora Box Turtles. Their ranges (used to) overlap. The "serrata species" was determined to just be a hybrid.

Intergrades of different subspecies are even more common, and a prime example would be American Box turtles.
 

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I am not aware of any hybrids of Burmese/Indian (or Sri Lankan) Stars, but I have seen pix of hybrid Radiated and another species. I think it was sulcata, but not sure. I don't look kindly on hybridization so didn't pay much attention while on my way to vomiting in the toilet.

In this country, hybridizing any species which is listed on one's CBW Permit is forbidden, so Radiateds could not be hybridized by a permit holder. Guess that will become less and less of a mandate going forward, since the USFWS is granting very few, if any, permits now.
I love you man. I wish I could "like" this post 1000 times.
 

ZenHerper

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...neanderthal and denisovan...
Both of which scientists now consider "human" species. In this case, offspring were technically "intergrade" because they were fertile and could move their mixed DNA forward through time.


Mixed species in the wild occur when territories overlap (naturally or during migrations). Sub-species intergrade animals are more vigorous on balance, and can threaten survival of the originating gene pools. (Human use of and changes to land/water and attendant changes to climate -- yeah, we're the problem.)

Intentional captive Chelonian hybrids are problematic for a number of reasons. A few top issues:

1) Most (not all) tortoise and turtle species are threatened in their natural habitats to some degree. Captive populations represent the preservation of unique species for future generations to enjoy.
2) Many cross-species hybrids are sterile. Though more vigorous in size and energy, they can be genetic duds (dead ends).
3) Intentional captive intergrades are diluting endangered and nearly-extinct gene pools...making it hard to figure out both *what* an animal is and *how* it might (or might not) fit into a preservation program.

So why waste clutches of captive eggs crossing animals that are disappearing in the wild? What does it matter that hybrids can be beautiful and long-lived if their genetic ancestors languish in the trade? If genetic stock worldwide were not under such a threat of collapse, I might consider hybrids to be a good "pet" option (sterile animals are easier to manage politically), but that's not where we are right now.


 

jcase

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Both of which scientists now consider "human" species. In this case, offspring were technically "intergrade" because they were fertile and could move their mixed DNA forward through time.


Mixed species in the wild occur when territories overlap (naturally or during migrations). Sub-species intergrade animals are more vigorous on balance, and can threaten survival of the originating gene pools. (Human use of and changes to land/water and attendant changes to climate -- yeah, we're the problem.)

Intentional captive Chelonian hybrids are problematic for a number of reasons. A few top issues:

1) Most (not all) tortoise and turtle species are threatened in their natural habitats to some degree. Captive populations represent the preservation of unique species for future generations to enjoy.
2) Many cross-species hybrids are sterile. Though more vigorous in size and energy, they can be genetic duds (dead ends).
3) Intentional captive intergrades are diluting endangered and nearly-extinct gene pools...making it hard to figure out both *what* an animal is and *how* it might (or might not) fit into a preservation program.

So why waste clutches of captive eggs crossing animals that are disappearing in the wild? What does it matter that hybrids can be beautiful and long-lived if their genetic ancestors languish in the trade? If genetic stock worldwide were not under such a threat of collapse, I might consider hybrids to be a good "pet" option (sterile animals are easier to manage politically), but that's not where we are right now.



1) *minority of scientists, there is not a consensus of if they are a Homo sapien subspecies or their full species. The majority of scientists studying neanderthalensis, go with a full species status. Since I'm not an expect, I will lean with their conclusions.

2) I agree, hybrids and intergrades, most especially in species with a limited gene pool, are not a good thing to promote, and not something I would intentionally do or encourage.

3) No reasonable person could deny that hybrids and intergrades are a natural thing. I have gotten intergrades in shipments of wild caught animals, it drove me bonkers as I was after a specific subspecies.

I firmly believe uninfluenced hybridization in nature is perfectly fine, it has been going on long before any one was keeping pets of any kind. The problem is, i doubt most of it is uninfluenced any more.
 
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