I'm worried Ninja may have URI

[Ninja]

My husband said he saw the infamous nose bubble yesterday and I'm sort of freaking out.

I am, of course!, going out of town this weekend, and working until then, so unable to take her in to a vet until next Wed (I'm in the Phoenix area, and would appreciate any recommendations, Dr. Driggers I think is one I've heard of).

I am a small animal veterinarian and have access to drugs I could use to treat her if it is deemed necessary before I can take her in, hence the reason for posting and getting your opinions and advice.

Here's her story, trying to keep it brief. She is 6 years old. I adopted her about 5 months ago. She had one history of URI in the past, but I don't know how long ago.

We built her a 3 ft by 4 ft wooden box enclosure, partially insulated, to sleep in at night. She likes it and goes in it almost religiously. I have an Osbourne heat mat that we used to keep inside the box that she would sleep on, but since Todd (exoticdr) post about his near miss on the fire I've been afraid of the mat (by the way, he's a classmate of mine at ISU, Hi Todd! Sarah Bashaw here!)

My rheostat has been a bit untrustworthy, I would check the mat at it's lowest setting and it would sometimes be as high as 130! So my solution was to place it under the floor of the box (there is a space for it due to us making feet on the box so we could rinse underneath it, it sits on our patio). Her box temp can get as low as 60 at night (it's been cold here), but the floor remains 75-85. We had a really cold spell and had to bring her inside a couple of nights, but again our house would still get down to 65.

The other thing I have done, that may be a mistake, is I put hay in her box. She keeps trying to dig in the wood and seemed like she wanted something to burrow in, and all I had was some hay so I tossed it in there. She seemed to like it, but now I wonder if the dust is a problem.

Now to her symptoms. She has always, since I got her, developed watery eyes about weekly, causing sort of a yellow ring around her eyes, but the discharge when I wipe it is clear. It seems to clear after soaking. She breaths heavy most of the time, and it sounds like her nostrils are too small or something, but she is not congested. She is active, eats almost constantly every day unless it is cold (just grass in our yard, I have stopped giving her treats except maybe 1x per week). She gets soaked about every 1-2 weeks, and also has a water pan she finds and soaks herself in. Her stool is voluminous, sort of sticky but not soft or runny. She has regular urates and usually urine too but I don't always find it. She doesn't seem sick in the least to me, but I've worried about how loudly she breaths. I have never seen a bubble.

Thanks for the advice. I wondered if I could do something intranasally until I could get her in. Couldnt hurt and might help.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Sarah:

I don't worry about nose bubbles or clear liquid. If the tortoise is eating and otherwise acting normally, I just ignore that symptom. If the discharge changes color or turns thick and the tortoise stops eating, that's when I intervene with antibiotics.

Stress (hibernation, other tortoises pestering, change in habitat) can cause a runny nose and it doesn't necessarily mean an infection.

 

[kbaker]

Ninja does not sound too bad so she will 'probably' be fine.

Two things to consider when seeing a 'nose bubble':
Was she just soaking or drinking?
Was she just eating grocery greens which have a lot of water in them?

Both of the above can cause a 'nose bubble'.

Next, keep her warm and hydrated and she should kick it if she is starting something. And of course, if things get worse, take her to a vet.

 

[Tom]

I sometimes hear the heavy breathing too. I think that its normal to hear it sometimes on adult sulcatas. Not wheezing or whistling though.

A note on the heat mats. I've been using around 8 of the Kane Heat Mats for nearly 10 years with no thermostat on them at all and had absolutely zero problems. It would seem to me that your "problem" started soon after you changed her heat mat situation. Don't let one person's unusual circumstance make you so worried that your tort suffers. I know dozens of people using those mats in the same way and not one of them has ever had a single problem. Dr. Westin's case is the first time I have ever seen a heat mat problem. My adult sulcatas lived outside that way for 7 years and have been fine. My problem was that the mats don't heat the air temp at all. So even thought their bodies were warm enough they were still breathing cold air. It didn't seem to bother them over all those years, but it was a constant source of worry for me. My tortoise house was a rubbermade shed and it was very drafty too. My solution was to build this:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-Mother-of-All-Tortoise-Boxes#axzz1E8Z8VoiW

Now their air temps stay in the low 80's all the time and I've seen a marked improvement in their vigor and appetite over this winter. They were surviving winter before, but now they are thriving during winter. I think its a much better way to go.

What kind of hay are you using? Does she eat it yet?

Also, I've heard lots of people talk about dry or dusty conditions causing the watery eyes and breathing difficulties. Well I'm embarrassed to say it, but before I knew better I would use rabbit pellets and they would get VERY dusty after a month or too. If I didn't change them out often enough, my whole house would get coated with rabbit pellet dust. (Those days are LOOONG gone now, btw.) The point is that indoors and out, my area is about as dry and dusty as it gets and it has never caused any of these problems for me. I occasionally see runny eyes, but it seems to be more heat related to me. I see them on the hot summer days when my dumb tortoises are walking around in the 100 degree weather in the hot sun at noon. They've got shade all around their pen, but the heat doesn't seem to bother them sometimes.

 

[Dizisdalife]

When I took my little Chuck ( a 125 gram yearling sulcata) to the Vet with similar symptoms he was given nose drops called Neo/Poly/Gram Opthalmic Solution 1 Omi. I was concerned about the drops getting in his eyes and was told not to worry because it is also used to treat eye problems in other animals. Since then I have gotten much better at getting the drops in his little nose.

A week later I returned to the Vet because his appetite had slowed dramatically. Chuck was then diagnosed with a URI and prescribed antibiotic injections. Baytrill 2.27% solution.

This all started with one little bubble. Actually, there was some nasal discharge before I saw the first bubble. It looked clear and harmless to me, but the Vet showed me where it was thick yellowish. My eyes aren't what they once were. Three weeks later and his appetite has improved, not fully recovered, and he is fairly active. I haven't seen any sign of nasal discharge in two weeks and haven't heard any wheezing since last week. Keeping my fingers crossed.

During this time I have changed his substrate several times to avoid reinfection. Also I have raised the temps in his enclosure about 5 degrees. Now the "cool" side is about 80 while the basking area is 100 - 105. The night time temps are 75 to 80. And plenty of water. He likes to soak in his dish for 30 to 40 minutes several times a day. I have 2 water dishes that I use to alternate with so that I can clean and dry out each one between uses. Not sure if that is necessary or even if it helps, but I do it anyway.

 

[montana]

What is the treatment for URI ???

What kind of antibiotics are used to treat it What dose .. ??

What environment is conductive to developing URI..??

 

[Ninja]

OK thanks. I think I was worrying a bit. I got home today and she was soaking in her little tray of water that I leave for her in the yard at all times (which of course was dark brown poo water) and had her face in it a little, so when I walked up to her and she pulled her head in she blew a bunch of water bubbles. The husband said the bubble was on her face and not necessarily her nose, so I think she may have been in the water yesterday. She's been active and eating like a pig, and man the poo volume is rediculous!

She doesn't eat the hay yet... she hates it. I've tried soaking it and mixing it with greens and she'll stop eating if she gets a big bite of hay. I have bermuda and orchard grass hay in there. I don't think I'll take it out just yet, but will once I get my heating figured out. She eats rye grass all day so I figure she'll never want to try the hay.

I do need to figure out a heating element of some sort for her box other than the mat. The temps in there stay pretty good during the day, as I have the walls insulated much like Tom's beautiful enclosure, but it does drop down at night. I also like the idea of putting the mat back in but not on for protection, if I have ambient temps up with another heater, as she is totally trashing the floor! I can't believe her digging in it gouges it so badly. And of course the poo is staining/trashing it too. I can easily put in a new floor, which I need to do so I can insulate it anyway.

I am a little frustrated with my mat though. It shouldn't get so hot. I think it may be the rheostat, as some days it isn't too hot and others it is. It sort of depends on abient temps, but one night it was in the 120s and the rheostat was all the way on the lowest setting. That's when I decided to take it out. I just didn't trust it and worried too much. Maybe I'll try a new rheostat cuz that's not super expensive and see what happens.

Thanks again