I'm not the expert I pretend to be

saginawhxc

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Just to be clear, I absolutely consider myself a rookie tortoise keeper. I acquired my first tortoise less than a year ago and in that time, thanks to this site, I have learned so much. I personally think my knowledge level is way ahead of the curve for how for how little time I've owned tortoises, but I will be the first to acknowledge that most people who think they know more than others are often wrong.

A member here recently enlightened me on the existence of a Facebook group for Sulcata members, but I was appalled at some of the information flying around there. Some owners weren't bad, some were good, some were obviously members here, but some were giving downright awful advice. The majority of the photos posted are of tortoises that are pyramiding or starting too.

In the couple of weeks I've been a member there I've spent an awful lot of time answering people's questions in the manner we would answer them here. I feel a little unsure about this though. I'm confident of the info, but feel like I haven't earned the right to give advice yet. I feel like my answers give the impression that I have WAY more experience than I actually do. I'm afraid that one of these days someone will challenge my experience and all I will be able to tell them is a guy on the Internet told me how to take care of tortoises. Who am I to tell people that have been raising tortoises for years that they are wrong? What right do I have to claim a level of knowledge that is based almost purely on the experience of those I have never even met?

One of my least favorite types of people are those that claim expertise, but don't have the experience to back it up. Somehow I've become that guy on the subject of tortoises.

Anybody else ever feel the same? How do you handle it? What is the proper approach to handling discussions about tortoises outside of the forum?
 

Yvonne G

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We all feel insecure when we first start out giving advice. When I first started I would say something like, "Well, I read blah, blah..." Or, "Joe Bloe on the forum says we should blah, blah..." Or, "I was told to yatta yatta...and I tried it and it works!" And of course, the old stand by...in my opinion...
 

Anyfoot

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Just to be clear, I absolutely consider myself a rookie tortoise keeper. I acquired my first tortoise less than a year ago and in that time, thanks to this site, I have learned so much. I personally think my knowledge level is way ahead of the curve for how for how little time I've owned tortoises, but I will be the first to acknowledge that most people who think they know more than others are often wrong.

A member here recently enlightened me on the existence of a Facebook group for Sulcata members, but I was appalled at some of the information flying around there. Some owners weren't bad, some were good, some were obviously members here, but some were giving downright awful advice. The majority of the photos posted are of tortoises that are pyramiding or starting too.

In the couple of weeks I've been a member there I've spent an awful lot of time answering people's questions in the manner we would answer them here. I feel a little unsure about this though. I'm confident of the info, but feel like I haven't earned the right to give advice yet. I feel like my answers give the impression that I have WAY more experience than I actually do. I'm afraid that one of these days someone will challenge my experience and all I will be able to tell them is a guy on the Internet told me how to take care of tortoises. Who am I to tell people that have been raising tortoises for years that they are wrong? What right do I have to claim a level of knowledge that is based almost purely on the experience of those I have never even met?

One of my least favorite types of people are those that claim expertise, but don't have the experience to back it up. Somehow I've become that guy on the subject of tortoises.

Anybody else ever feel the same? How do you handle it? What is the proper approach to handling discussions about tortoises outside of the forum?
Keep doing what your doing. The good information from the experienced on here needs to be put out there for the sake of tortoises. Your privileged to have jumped in where it's took someone 20yrs to get to. If we all started at day dot we wouldn't get anywhere.
As for the 20yrs+ experienced people still raising pyramided torts, they will get left behind over time if good info gets out there. Surely a very experienced keeper raising pyramided torts must wonder what's going off when 1yr rookie is producing healthy smooth torts.
Keep plugging away at the world of torts.
 

TerrapinStation

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Sometimes you can't teach an old dog new tricks, but you can teach a new dog old tricks, or in this case you can teach all the dogs all the tricks?

That's the coffee talking, sorry.
 

cmacusa3

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but don't have the experience to back it up.

Great post! I could go on and on about people giving advice that have zero experience with situations. I see nothing wrong with you helping and giving advice because your plugged in to the situation. Roll on and continue with the help, all newbies need it from the right source.
 

saginawhxc

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We all feel insecure when we first start out giving advice. When I first started I would say something like, "Well, I read blah, blah..." Or, "Joe Bloe on the forum says we should blah, blah..." Or, "I was told to yatta yatta...and I tried it and it works!" And of course, the old stand by...in my opinion...
I feel compelling arguments rarely include statements about the website you read it on, but I do say things like "in my opinion" or "this is what I would do" a lot.

Whenever someone asks for general care I do immediately post links to the beginner's mistakes thread and to Tom's sulcata care sheets.
 

saginawhxc

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Sometimes you can't teach an old dog new tricks, but you can teach a new dog old tricks, or in this case you can teach all the dogs all the tricks?

That's the coffee talking, sorry.
Well I need someone to teach my dog some tricks. That dog flat out refuses to learn anything fun. Okay, one thing. He will play dead. Kind of... he lays on his side but picks his head up to stare at you.

I have another dog I can teach almost any trick in a single session, but I'm lucky if I can get dumb dog to do anything but accidentally knock the baby over.
 

saginawhxc

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Great post! I could go on and on about people giving advice that have zero experience with situations. I see nothing wrong with you helping and giving advice because your plugged in to the situation. Roll on and continue with the help, all newbies need it from the right source.
I once broke up a serious relationship because she was the worst with this. She would learn something on Monday and then on Tuesday would be telling somebody who had been doing it all their life how to do it better.

Well that wasn't the only reason I broke up with her, but it was at least 80% of it.
 

saginawhxc

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I still can't tell someone if their tortoise is male or female.
I was able to positively identify my Russian! He was easy. I've looked at photos that compare both for sulcatas though and still struggle to see it in practice.

Well there was that time one of the sulcatas flopped his penis out and dragged it all over my living room floor. I was positively able to identify him as male at that point too.
 

Levi the Leopard

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I tell people that I'm trying a particular method based on the results I saw that method produce.

I'll say, I've decided to use a terra cotta saucer as a water dish after a few people shared their testimonies of their tortoise flipping in a deep petsmart bowl.

Or

I've been keeping my leopard in higher humidity after seeing so many others try it and produce big, healthy, smooth shelled tortoises. I looked at both methods, dry and humid but the dry ones didn't seem as healthy when Icompared them. So far, I'm pleased that my personal experience is reflecting the same results, look into it and see if you like what you see, too.

Or

I've been too hesitant to try keeping tortoises in pairs. It's sounds like it would be a good idea from our perspective but others have had experiences that prove the opposite.I was shocked to learn that they are solitary animals and compete for territory. I've also heard explanations that tortoise aggression doesn't look like what we would call aggression, so that makes it even more tricky!

Etc..make sense? You can share good info even if you don't have the first hand experience by explaining how you came to agree that it was in fact, "good info".

I don't know if this helps or I'm just rambling...I'm sleep deprived right now LOL
 

Tom

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What you've described in post number one is exactly how I feel about giving advice on species I don't currently keep. I'm not a RF guy, but I've had them in the past. I did most everything wrong because I was ignorant, but I have somewhat of a feel for keeping the RFs from conversations here and my own limited experience. I frequently see questions posted that I know the answers to, but I'm reluctant to give anything but the most general advice on species that I don't currently keep, or haven't raised from hatchling to adulthood several times.

In these situations, I will always throw out one of those disclaimers that were already mentioned, and I will defer to someone with more first hand experience as long as what they have to say makes sense with what I know. For example: I'm not going to go along with it if someone with lots of experience says a RF will do best in a rain chamber at 65 degrees to simulate the Amazon rainy season.

I've considered jumping on that sulcata FB page that I keep hearing about, but I'm sure I'd be banned pretty quickly. Plus I just don't do FB or any other social media stuff like that. I just do TFO and I argue enough here!!!

I understand your dilemma. All you can do is preface things the right way, be honest about your experience level and do your best. If people don't want the help, then it doesn't matter what you do anyway. If people who have been doing it all wrong, but doing it longer than you want to argue, then argue. Explain to them what you know and what you've learned. Explain why your way is better and their ways isn't. Here's the thing: The truth is on your side. You are right, even though you don't have decades of experience with hundreds of tortoises to back it up. Those people arguing with you will eventually also stumble upon the truth, as I did, if they will open their mind just a little bit. Remember that in the case of sulcatas, you are fighting 30+ years of bad, incorrect info. This battle won't be won easily. This ignorance is well entrenched. I know. I was one of the people repeating and promoting this wrong info, until I figured out it was wrong and didn't work. There is enough evidence right here on this forum to make your case too.

Plus, if you find yourself in a jam, we will help you. I'll PM you my number and you can call or text anytime someone is pressing you with the wrong info. I'll feed you the arguments and answers that you don't already have. I've done this with a few other people already. I feel it is important to get this info out for the benefit of all the tortoises suffering in dry conditions out there in the world. And remember something else: Even if you are not currently reaching the person you are arguing with, your calm, cool and collected, ideas and thoughts ARE reaching other people who are silently reading along. Often the person you are arguing with will come around days, months or years later. I've seen this many times even with top "experts". Like the time Andy Highfield called the humidity thing a "red herring" and compared people who use those methods to people who believe in UFOs. Years later he recanted and said he regretted those remarks. He was ignorant when he made those statements. He just hadn't learned what you already know when he said those things. He knows now, but not until many other people argued with him about it. He had to be told repeatedly by people he respected before he learned, but learn he did, eventually.
 

TerrapinStation

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There is a independent family owned pet store near me, and they keep a 20 year old, 40 lb rescued sulcata loose in the store. He is their mascot. Even got an article in the NY Times written about him. The owner knows that it is not the best environment for him, and I told him about TFO but I think he avoids it because he knows he will be told everything he is doing is dangerous and wrong.

This store does a lot of educational outreach with schools and children, as well as charity events, all with their Sulcata as the "face" of the business. Kids beg their parents to go see him, and he does put a smile on a lot of faces. Does that make it OK? No, but the tortoise could be living in a box or closet somewhere instead of being a pampered local celebrity with a key to the city.

I guess what I am getting at is you have to crack some eggs to make an omelette. If just a few kids are affected as such to research, learn and volunteer to help animals through that store and that tortoise, I think it is all worth it. I remember getting in a fight in elementary school because kids were stomping on worms on the blacktop at recess after a rainstorm. I was picking them up and setting them in the grass Not everybody has the compassion towards animals that we do here, and sometimes it takes speaking or acting up to help those that cannot help themselves(human or animal!)
 

saginawhxc

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That story is equal parts awesome and sad.

I plan on eventually using my snapping turtle as a "mascot" for a business that I plan on opening in the next few years. Even plan loosely on naming it after him.
 

legan52

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I feel the exact same way. I'm a novice too, but I've spent HOURS on this site sifting through info. I feel pretty confident about sulcata care, at least, but I hesitate to jump in. Besides, the forum is already full of more knowledgeable people than me :)
 

GingerLove

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This is a great thread and an excellent lesson for me to learn. :) I've only had my tort a year, but I often try to be an "expert". Sometimes I jump in and say the wrong thing. Great reminder for me not to be stuck up! :p Thanks for posting!
 

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