identification

rande

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I am trying to set up a breeding group of Greek tortoises. I have 2 males and 3 females so far, and I need someone help me to identify them.
Here is a group pic of all 5
image.jpg

1.This one is from ACT, sold as a male Ibera greek. Looks pretty old, lol.image.jpgimage.jpg
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2.This one is sold me as a female unknown Greek. The seller told me she is definitely not an Ibera. But a lot people i asked think she is. image.jpg
image.jpg

3.This one is sold me as a dark male Libyan Greek.
image.jpg
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4. This one is sold me as a female Ibera Greek.
image.jpg image.jpg
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5. This one is sold me as a female Moroccan Greek .image.jpgimage.jpg
Please feel free to say any idea you have about them.
Also, it would be great if anyone can give me any advice about how to breed them indoor.
 

rande

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image.jpg
image.jpg
image.jpg
By the way, I just found that this one has some pinkish color on her skin, not sure if it is normal or not.
 

Yvonne G

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I don't know how to distinguish between the different sub groups of Greek tortoises, but I DO know that if I were to set up breeding groups, I wouldn't mix the different sub species. I'd try to keep the lines pure. Let's send a shout-out to @HermanniChris He'll be able to help you with the i.d.s
 

rande

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I don't know how to distinguish between the different sub groups of Greek tortoises, but I DO know that if I were to set up breeding groups, I wouldn't mix the different sub species. I'd try to keep the lines pure. Let's send a shout-out to @HermanniChris He'll be able to help you with the i.d.s
i would like to set a group of same subspecie too, but the adults are so hard to find. By the way, is there any significant drawback of cross breed different subspecies?
 

Nanchantress

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One drawback to crossbreeding is that it will make it difficult to identify which species the resulting babies are. In the same way it is difficult for you to identify what species your adults are. Specific physical characteristics that help identify subspecies get "muddied" in crossbreeds. That is my unprofessional opinion, anyway.
 

HermanniChris

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What you have are 4 T. g. ibera from what looks to be at least 2 different localities and a T. g. terrestris (the one with the orange-ish skin). It would be best and most responsible to keep them separate to their subspecies and/or locales. Mixing is frowned upon by most serious keepers and breeders and seriously damages bloodlines. The "pollution" of the lines further adds to the serious crisis facing Mediterranean tortoises particularly Greek and Hermann's and the future of their purity. The last few decades of mixing subspecies and even localities has caused an overwhelming problem for the community worldwide allowing more and more questionable and even unwanted tortoise specimens across the globe.
 

Nanchantress

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So I guess the ultimate question is, @rande , do you want to be part of the problem or part of the solution? We all make personal choices every day that can have consequences down the road. Examine your motives for setting up a breeding group of mixed subspecies and decide if it is worth it.
 

leigti

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What you have are 4 T. g. ibera from what looks to be at least 2 different localities and a T. g. terrestris (the one with the orange-ish skin). It would be best and most responsible to keep them separate to their subspecies and/or locales. Mixing is frowned upon by most serious keepers and breeders and seriously damages bloodlines. The "pollution" of the lines further adds to the serious crisis facing Mediterranean tortoises particularly Greek and Hermann's and the future of their purity. The last few decades of mixing subspecies and even localities has caused an overwhelming problem for the community worldwide allowing more and more questionable and even unwanted tortoise specimens across the globe.
Sort of off topic here but do Russians have the same issues with the crossbreeding? What I mean is are people breeding the different subspecies and mixing them up?
 

rande

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So I guess the ultimate question is, @rande , do you want to be part of the problem or part of the solution? We all make personal choices every day that can have consequences down the road. Examine your motives for setting up a breeding group of mixed subspecies and decide if it is worth it.
well, to be honest, I didnt see why “make it difficult to identify” is a “significant” drawback. When a black married a white,their specific physical characteristics get "muddied" too, and I never heard people say this is a bad thing(other than racists). I know this is probably a bad example, but did you get what I am saying?
 

rande

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What you have are 4 T. g. ibera from what looks to be at least 2 different localities and a T. g. terrestris (the one with the orange-ish skin). It would be best and most responsible to keep them separate to their subspecies and/or locales. Mixing is frowned upon by most serious keepers and breeders and seriously damages bloodlines. The "pollution" of the lines further adds to the serious crisis facing Mediterranean tortoises particularly Greek and Hermann's and the future of their purity. The last few decades of mixing subspecies and even localities has caused an overwhelming problem for the community worldwide allowing more and more questionable and even unwanted tortoise specimens across the globe.
Thank you Chris, but I am still a little confused.
Can you be a little more specific? Why is the purity important? What are some of the examples of questionable and unwanted tortoise specimens? I feel it should be fine since I am not creating any infertile hybrid. Also, if you don't mind, could you tell me how can you tell their subspecies? Like what are some of the small details that show they are iberas?
 

HermanniChris

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For starters:

The large lighter colored male is a T. g. ibera most likely from a more southern part of Turkey. Same with the large female sold to you as ibera. The broad shape of the carapace, straw-horn ground color, large heads with big eyes and general bulbous appearance.

The "dark colored Libyan" is not a Libyan to any extent. I've seen that animal before and a few others like it, they are a mix which are at least part ibera. The dark coloration and plastron give it away.

The animal sold to you as "definitely not an ibera" definitely IS an ibera. This animal's parents more then likely derive from western Turkey or the area where the ibera Greeks known as "T. g. anamurensis" occur. These are large, black tortoises which will eventually flare out at the back much like a Marginated tortoise (I can't tell you how many of these I've had to properly identify for people because they mistakingly thought they were T. marginata). Again, the dark coloration in which case is slightly highlighted by a straw-yellow ground color on each carapace scute, shape of the head, eyes and plastron all give way to it being an ibera or at the most, a T. g. anamurensis which is still under scrutiny because many believe they are not a full subspecies and just a geographical variation of ibera.

Your T. g. terrestris has all the tell tale signs of the subspecies. The orange skin, the lighter overall color, smaller petite size, sleeker head and plastral markings/shape.

Now on to your question of mixing.

Humans whether black, white or rainbow= Homo sapiens.
Ibera Greek tortoise= Testudo graeca ibera
Golden Greek tortoise= Testudo graeca terrestris

So they are not the same. They are subspecies that may eventually be elevated to full species level. Some Golden Greeks have been known to die egg bound from being mated to a larger example of a Greek tortoise such as T. g. ibera or even some North African Greeks. The eggs are simply too large to pass and the animal suffers, then dies. Same can happen when a T. h. hermanni breeds to a T. h. boettgeri. This is not always the case but it can and does occur. The same can even happen (although much rarer) when locales are crossed with each other. The Northern populations of T. g. ibera can grow to be enormous (9-11") while the southern populations may never make it to 8". As of now they are classified as the same subspecies but perhaps this should be changed. I know what I think and it's basically the same way I see Hermann's tortoises. Some of these groups or strains need to be further broken down into new subspecies or even some to full species rank. Everything from habits to habitat to egg size and clutch size is different. That's enough for some, but for others it isn't, so they take the chance and mix.

We just took on a group of tortoises in which case a T. h. hercegovinensis is severely egg bound from mating with a very large T. h boettgeri male that was mixed into the group. We also helped a severely egg bound T. g. ibera pass 9, soft shelled eggs (insufficient calcium levels) and we aren't even sure who she mated with because there was no male ibera in her group.

As for mixing strains/locales/subspecies...

It comes down to personal preference but I for one am utterly and firmly against it. Our southern ibera Greeks can't even see our Northern ibera Greeks from where their pens are in the yard. Same goes for all other Greeks we breed and of course every single locale of Hermann's tortoise we breed whether it be T. h. hermanni, boettgeri or hercegovinensis. Even our Red Foot tortoise groups are separated, same with box turtles, same with some other species. Hybrids have been known to be sterile but if they aren't (and many times they are not) they will possibly be bred one day to something else which will further dilute a bloodline and create nothing more then a tortoise that at that point is nearly impossible to properly identify. We as humans have gone overboard. We've stripped native lands of their tortoises without any regard for what they actually are, we boxed them up, shipped them out and began making money on them worldwide. The serious researchers who cared for the fate of them buried their noses deep in the actual study of their whereabouts, their traits and natural history. They came up with information we didn't even know existed. We now have literature, diagrams and images showing us what these tortoises are and with google at everyone's fingertips, it's only right that we do as much research as possible to learn every last detail we can....we just don't have the excuse not to anymore. Moons ago, nature decided what tortoises would live where. Through the changes in land and water, certain populations established on certain soils. That's how I keep them here. They evolved over time and now fit a particular description. It's up to us to follow that or ignore it. For the sake of just wanting to breed tortoises, no one is doing any good to chelonians as a whole by just throwing animals together to see what comes of it.

If I were you (and please understand that this is simply my opinion and nothing more) I would place the "dark Libyan" that is a mix with someone who is looking for just 1 pet tortoise to enjoy for no other reason, pair up the 2 large ibera you have since it makes the most sense, find a mate for the T. g. terrestris which will not be hard and do the same with the dark ibera. If you're going to mix anything at all, putting the dark ibera with the large pair would be most logical since they are still considered the same subspecies.

Racism is not applicable to tortoises or the breeding of them. It's just not how they are viewed. There is no discrimination or judgement against one locale, strain or subspecies. They are supposed to be matched up accordingly. They were meant to be a certain way but now that we've raped the natural world, it's the responsibility of the responsible keeper to pick up the pieces and put the puzzle back together as closely as possible. With so many animals always available, anyone can breed tortoises, but doing it with nature as a guideline is the real challenge.

I hope this helps!

Here's a pic of a southern ibera (left) facing a northern ibera (right). They are together ONLY for this photo to show the difference.
 
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Nanchantress

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well, to be honest, I didnt see why “make it difficult to identify” is a “significant” drawback. When a black married a white,their specific physical characteristics get "muddied" too, and I never heard people say this is a bad thing(other than racists). I know this is probably a bad example, but did you get what I am saying?
This is definitely a ridiculous comparison. I am not talking about breeding and selling humans. How dare you bring "racism" into the conversation and imply my comments extend to humans! Please use what @HermanniChris said to educate and enlighten yourself before you begin a breeding program.
 

Jlant85

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For starters:

The large lighter colored male is a T. g. ibera most likely from a more southern part of Turkey. Same with the large female sold to you as ibera. The broad shape of the carapace, straw-horn ground color, large heads with big eyes and general bulbous appearance.

The "dark colored Libyan" is not a Libyan to any extent. I've seen that animal before and a few others like it, they are a mix which are at least part ibera. The dark coloration and plastron give it away.

The animal sold to you as "definitely not an ibera" definitely IS an ibera. This animal's parents more then likely derive from western Turkey or the area where the ibera Greeks known as "T. g. anamurensis" occur. These are large, black tortoises which will eventually flare out at the back much like a Marginated tortoise (I can't tell you how many of these I've had to properly identify for people because they mistakingly thought they were T. marginata). Again, the dark coloration in which case is slightly highlighted by a straw-yellow ground color on each carapace scute, shape of the head, eyes and plastron all give way to it being an ibera or at the most, a T. g. anamurensis which is still under scrutiny because many believe they are not a full subspecies and just a geographical variation of ibera.

Your T. g. terrestris has all the tell tale signs of the subspecies. The orange skin, the lighter overall color, smaller petite size, sleeker head and plastral markings/shape.

Now on to your question of mixing.

Humans whether black, white or rainbow= Homo sapiens.
Ibera Greek tortoise= Testudo graeca ibera
Golden Greek tortoise= Testudo graeca terrestris

So they are not the same. They are subspecies that may eventually be elevated to full species level. Some Golden Greeks have been known to die egg bound from being mated to a larger example of a Greek tortoise such as T. g. ibera or even some North African Greeks. The eggs are simply too large to pass and the animal suffers, then dies. Same can happen when a T. h. hermanni breeds to a T. h. boettgeri. This is not always the case but it can and does occur. The same can even happen (although much rarer) when locales are crossed with each other. The Northern populations of T. g. ibera can grow to be enormous (9-11") while the southern populations may never make it to 8". As of now they are classified as the same subspecies but perhaps this should be changed. I know what I think and it's basically the same way I see Hermann's tortoises. Some of these groups or strains need to be further broken down into new subspecies or even some to full species rank. Everything from habits to habitat to egg size and clutch size is different. That's enough for some, but for others it isn't, so they take the chance and mix.

We just took on a group of tortoises in which case a T. h. hercegovinensis is severely egg bound from mating with a very large T. h boettgeri male that was mixed into the group. We also helped a severely egg bound T. g. ibera pass 9, soft shelled eggs (insufficient calcium levels) and we aren't even sure who she mated with because there was no male ibera in her group.

As for mixing strains/locales/subspecies...

It comes down to personal preference but I for one am utterly and firmly against it. Our southern ibera Greeks can't even see our Northern ibera Greeks from where their pens are in the yard. Same goes for all other Greeks we breed and of course every single locale of Hermann's tortoise we breed whether it be T. h. hermanni, boettgeri or hercegovinensis. Even our Red Foot tortoise groups are separated, same with box turtles, same with some other species. Hybrids have been known to be sterile but if they aren't (and many times they are not) they will possibly be bred one day to something else which will further dilute a bloodline and create nothing more then a tortoise that at that point is nearly impossible to properly identify. We as humans have gone overboard. We've stripped native lands of their tortoises without any regard for what they actually are, we boxed them up, shipped them out and began making money on them worldwide. The serious researchers who cared for the fate of them buried their noses deep in the actual study of their whereabouts, their traits and natural history. They came up with information we didn't even know existed. We now have literature, diagrams and images showing us what these tortoises are and with google at everyone's fingertips, it's only right that we do as much research as possible to learn every last detail we can....we just don't have the excuse not to anymore. Moons ago, nature decided what tortoises would live where. Through the changes in land and water, certain populations established on certain soils. That's how I keep them here. They evolved over time and now fit a particular description. It's up to us to follow that or ignore it. For the sake of just wanting to breed tortoises, no one is doing any good to chelonians as a whole by just throwing animals together to see what comes of it.

If I were you (and please understand that this is simply my opinion and nothing more) I would place the "dark Libyan" that is a mix with someone who is looking for just 1 pet tortoise to enjoy for no other reason, pair up the 2 large ibera you have since it makes the most sense, find a mate for the T. g. terrestris which will not be hard and do the same with the dark ibera. If you're going to mix anything at all, putting the dark ibera with the large pair would be most logical since they are still considered the same subspecies.

Racism is not applicable to tortoises or the breeding of them. It's just not how they are viewed. There is no discrimination or judgement against one locale, strain or subspecies. They are supposed to be matched up accordingly. They were meant to be a certain way but now that we've raped the natural world, it's the responsibility of the responsible keeper to pick up the pieces and put the puzzle back together as closely as possible. With so many animals always available, anyone can breed tortoises, but doing it with nature as a guideline is the real challenge.

I hope this helps!

Here's a pic of a southern ibera (left) facing a northern ibera (right). They are together ONLY for this photo to show the difference.

Well said. It's always fun reading your opinion Chris.
 

WithLisa

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Some Golden Greeks have been known to die egg bound from being mated to a larger example of a Greek tortoise such as T. g. ibera or even some North African Greeks. The eggs are simply too large to pass and the animal suffers, then dies.
How is that possible, isn't the size of the eggs (or at least of the yolk, but I'm sure that's an important factor for the egg size) already determined before they are inseminated? I don't know about tortoises, but small chicken breeds lay small eggs, even when the rooster is of a large breed.

Maybe there could be problems if the offspring inherits the genes for a small body but also for big eggs... But that's just a thought.
 

HermanniChris

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There isn't much insight on why this happens yet but it has occurred on numerous occasions with various species particularly Testudo species. The fact of the matter remains, why chance it?
 

bedia

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Hi! İ see this turning into a heated argument.
Mixing tort subspecies is like mixing dog species. Would you let your labrador mate with a golden just to have puppies??
 

johnsonnboswell

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[QUOTE="rande, post: 1097267, Also, it would be great if anyone can give me any advice about how to breed them indoor.[/QUOTE]

With no outdoor time? That seems unkind. I understand that you may want to incubate them yourself. How can you possibly give them enough room indoors as a group? Your ratio of males to females is also a problem.
 

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