I think I am doing something wrong

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Albinoboidsetc

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OK I have not been able to sleep for the past 13 hours and have been running between my regular animal duties and this forum and I am convinced I am doing something wrong. I got my two Torts Dipp and Dott (fiancé named them) last year as little hatchlings, they have grown roughly 1/2'' in my care. I actually got them as a gift and was very surprised when they showed up with the Fed-Ex guy. I didn't know they were coming so I was caught off guard. I live in NC, a humid place that gets snow from time to time, so I never thought about getting any Sulcatas as I thought that it was kind of a bad place to raise them, never the less they showed up he and I became responsible for them. I did some research on them and found out that no two care sheets agreed with each other. This was bad news as I had 2 little tots who needed things now. So I put them in a sweater box, put i a bowl of water and bought some Tortoise food. Shortly after reading some of these care sheets I realized that pre-made food was bad so I switched them over to moistened Orchard Grass, gave them some hide boxes, and give them about a half hour outside each day.

The problem I am having is that after seeing everyone on heres set-ups I think I may be inadvertently abusing my Torts. I soak them every day, I clean their box every day, I change their water 2 times a day at least, I give them calcium and vitamins, I let them outside for supervised adventures, but I can't help but think I am doing something wrong. I noticed alot of people keeping their Sulcatas on what looks like Coco Fiber, I was under the assumption that if they were kept too moist that they would get sick. Was I wrong and should I get them off of the news print? Is there any care sheets that you guys on here agree on that are good for raising babies? All of the one I see are so conflicting, one will say not to let them get above 90 degrees anther says 110, one says not to let them get down to 60 degrees another says they are fine at 45. One will say to keep humidity down, anther says that babies need high humidity, one says feed them only grass, another says to feed them mainly leafy greens. Please help me figure this out. I do wish I had found this forum a year ago. Well off to go clean some cages and check eggs :) Here are a couple of pictures of my little guys in their set up sorry the pics are kinda of garbage my good camera is at the shop. :(

Bonus points to anyone who can figure out why they are named Dipp and Dott. :)

The full set -up
DSCF2452.jpg


Dipp the anti social please excuse the little poo next to him, I am about to clean that up.
DSCF2450.jpg


Dott the extrovert
DSCF2448.jpg
 

Laura

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Get them off the newsprint, top soil or mulch.. they need traction and moisture and something to burrow/hide in. and go to the store and buy Spring Mix salad.. at this age they dont eat dry hay. or at least not much..
Yes, they need humidty.. in the wild.. they would be living in a burrow.. nice and humid.. new studies lately that prove they need it.. or will get the pyrimiding shells.
whomever sent them to you.. bad bad bad.. animals should never be given as gifts like that..
If you can build a safe OUTDOOR enclosure for them, that is where they should be. and will be soon anyway.. do you see how big they get? and how fast?
Stick with us.. we will help you get them setteled.. and remember there isnt just One way to do it..
let start with the flooring and diet. :)
welcome to the family..
 

Tom

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Wow. They look fantastic!

There are many reasons why you are seeing so much conflicting info. First of all, most of the internet care sheets are outdated and we know better now. Second, the necessary care is vastly different for babies and adults of the same species. Third, everybody's got an opinion. The keepers on this forum are some of the best in the business. We've got a lot of years of combined experience and we compare notes all day long.

Here is MY opinion of how to keep baby sulcatas like yours. You need a humid substrate and some humid hides. For substrate I recommend coco coir, fine orchid bark or cypress mulch, plain soil with no additives (good luck finding that), and sphagnum moss. I don't like sand in any form or amount. As long as they are kept warm, 75 or higher, humidity is good for them. Just don't let them get chilled and damp at the same time. Soak them daily and spray the shells until they drip 3 or 4 times a day. Keeping them dry is a thing of the past and was incorrectly based on them being a "desert" animal. Babies in the wild stay underground or in humid, confined, hiding spots most of the time. They don't just sit out in the hot sun, exposed all day. Keeping them hydrated and humid will prevent pyramiding and keep them healthy. Once you change the substrate, I'd bury that water bowl so they can get in and out easier. Flower pot saucers work well for that too.

For temps the confusion comes from people meaning different things. There are four temps to be concerned with. Cool side, 75-80 for babies. Warm side, 80-90 for babies. Basking spot should be 100-110, but only in one little spot. I also like to project my basking lamps onto a flat rock, slate, flagstone or a tile. The fourth temp is night time. I like to keep babies 75-80 at night. Adults can survive night temps in the 50's, but its not ideal. I keep my adults at least in the 60's all winter long.

For food, variety is good. Dry or moistened grass hay is more appropriate for bigger ones. You should look for weeds, fresh grass, cactus, leaves from hibiscus, roses and mulberry trees, flowers from roses and hibiscus. This stuff is all free, if you can find a fertilizer and pesticide free area to get them from. You can also buy spring mix and leafy greens from the grocery store. There is whole section of this forum dedicated to food ideas. My adults eat flakes of Bermuda grass hay. My babies get some fresh grass trimmed and cut in to very short lengths with scissors and mixed in with their other food. Only very recently, on the advice of those with much more experience than me, I've decided that Mazuri tortoise food is good stuff as part of a varied diet too.

Outside time in a safe pen is very helpful too. Safe from predators, escape, overheating, yard chemicals, etc...

Please grill me or us on any fine points or anything not enumerated here. We all want nothing but the best for you and your torts.

Dipp and Dott, like the flash frozen ice cream treats?
 

Albinoboidsetc

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OK, thanks, I will get right on that and post new pics when I have it set up proper. :)

OH yeah I know how big they get I've dealt with large Sulcatas in the past at a rescue I used to volunteer at, this is the first time I have ever personally owned any and the first time I have dealt with babies. I have plans for a permanent outdoor enclosure for when they are a bit larger, but them being only about 2.5 inches I am kind of scared of putting them out there like that. For now I just take them out there daily and let them get some sun. The guy who sent them to me is a snake breeder friend of mine and actually sent them to me as a gift because he thought that it would help my fiancé come around to reptiles, it worked a little bit but I do agree with you that animals, especially something like a tortoise that requires so much more time and effort then any of my snakes or lizards do. I have given him an earful of how much I didn't appreciate him doing that.

They seem to have been doing good on the The Spring Mix salad is that something that I should be able to find at like most grocery stores? Should they switch over easily,without messing up their guts? Because they love their grass and have been eating it now for about a year. Also by Mulch do you mean like Cyprus mulch?


*added on because Tom answered a bunch of my questions before I could hit the post button :)

I actually have a mulberry tree/bush thing in my yard that I was going to remove, I guess I wont do that now lol. As for temps I have them in the reptile room and it NEVER goes below 72 degrees so that is easy enough. I also have some left over Coco fiber that I never used in my lay boxes this year how moist should it be kept. No one around here sells Mazuri and on their site it seems a bit expensive if my guys don't want to eat it.

Thanks for the info, I am going to go try to find this Spring mixture and what not, and I will be picking everyones brains, I want these guys to have long healthy lifes. :)
 

Missy

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Awww cute little guys. You have come to the right place. I have a 2 year old salcata and have learned a lot on this forum. Welcome :)
 

Laura

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Mazuri should be able to be ordered at any Feed store that sells Purina brand feed. I get my large feed bag for $25. if you get the big bag, then you can re sell to others who cant get it!
Spring Mix can be bought at any grocery store. bags or loose or in a tub.. Its good for you too!
Mazuri is also sold here by a few members.. some even offer free shipping at times.. you wont need much, so try a small bag first.. for your babies, you would want a few pieces soaked to soften and see if they like it.
 

Yvonne G

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There is no one-size-fits-all way to care for turtles and tortoises. We encourage everyone here on the forum to think for themselves and use the information they glean from us folks here whichever way fits you and your climate and situation.

Tom lives in a very dry area of the U.S. The way he takes care of his animals is vastly different from the way that Stells in the U.K. would care for the same kind of animal.

Maggie likes to use cypress mulch as substrate. It fits her tortoise-keeping ways. While Kyryah likes to use coconut coir as substrate.

There is no one way to do it. You have to think of what the animal needs and where you live...what your climate is like...and go from there.

It might sound like we are giving out conflicting information. This really isn't the case. We all do what we think is right for the tortoises in our care, in our climate. And you must do the same.

So, read through the posts in the Sulcata section, especially the ongoing post that Tom has about pyramiding in sulcatas, and take what you think is going to work for you.

Just one note from me about the food. I like to feed my babies Spring Mix because its easy. But any dark, leafy greens is much better for your baby than hay. The hay is pretty hard for babies to eat. When you read that you should be feeding hay, that's mainly talking about grown tortoises. Babies don't eat hay.

Happy reading! Good luck with your babies.
 

Albinoboidsetc

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OK I added the Coco Fiber, I added a piece of slate for the basking area, I even tried to bury the hide boxes. I got some Mulberry leaves out of the back yard and they really seemed to like them. I'm glad I put off getting rid of that thing. lol I went looking for the Spring mix but they were sold out untill next week. I printed off a list of plants that are good for them and aam going to hit up Lowes maybe tomorrow. Well here are some pics of their updated set-up

Dotts first Mulbery leaf
DSCF2453.jpg


Dipps first Mulberry leaf
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A shot of everything
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Dipp seems to be confused as to how to use a hide box
DSCF2454.jpg


They both seem to like the mulberry leafs
DSCF2460.jpg
 

Laura

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I feel better already.. oh.. I mean THEY seem to feel better already. :)
Do you have dandilion weeds? Mallow? a garden with pumpkin or squash leaves ?
or blossoms?
Variety is the spice of life!
 

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Hey good job! I'm very happy we were able to help.

Yvonnes' post was, as usual very accurate. I do go way overboard with the humidity and dampness and you probably won't need to go that far, unless its very dry in your reptile room. Regardless of humidity, spraying their shells 3 or 4 times a day will help keep them perfectly smooth like that as they grow.

I'm looking forward to more updates and pics.

Now go get some sleep!
 

Albinoboidsetc

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I actually grow squash as well as a bunch of other veggies, plenty of Dandelion as well I need to look over my lists of stuff and see what I grow that they can eat, this should be fun. :) Again thank you everyone for giving me advise on how to take proper care of these guys, I can't wait till they get bigger so I can build their outside enclosure. If they wind up being two males they will need to be seperated right? I know that if they wind up being a male and a female I am seperating them for sure.

PS No time for sleep, I gotta go to a fund raiser thing for my late cousins child, then home to feed babies and watch Futurama, then sleep. Yes much sleep will be had till 6am. :)
 
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Great job on the new enclosure! My sully is under a year old and loves to eat purslane, aloe, and Christmas cactus.
 

Tom

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Albinoboidsetc said:
I actually grow squash as well as a bunch of other veggies, plenty of Dandelion as well I need to look over my lists of stuff and see what I grow that they can eat, this should be fun. :) Again thank you everyone for giving me advise on how to take proper care of these guys, I can't wait till they get bigger so I can build their outside enclosure. If they wind up being two males they will need to be seperated right? I know that if they wind up being a male and a female I am seperating them for sure.

PS No time for sleep, I gotta go to a fund raiser thing for my late cousins child, then home to feed babies and watch Futurama, then sleep. Yes much sleep will be had till 6am. :)

My two males lived together for ten years before I had to separate them. Sometimes they get along and sometimes they don't. They seem to get along better in group situations than in pairs or threesomes. I know lots of people with a half dozen or more, with multiple males, and they get along fine. Why are you going to separate them if they are M/F? Don't you want hundreds of these running around?:
24n2s03.jpg


BTW, Futurama is great! Bender, Frye, Lela...
 

Laura

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my two large males live together still . They have such a large area i think it works for them. they still sleep in the same shed. If I have to seperate them i can and will.
Have fun! thats what it is all about!
I think you will see some big growth really quick.. keep them moist.
 

Yvonne G

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Albinoboidsetc said:
If they wind up being two males they will need to be separated right?

Sometimes they live in peace together, and sometimes not. I took in two 8 year old desert tortoise brothers (gopherus agassizii) that lived together all their lives, but when they reached sexual maturity they wanted to kill each other. The owner couldn't deal with it and gave them up. On the other hand, I have two Aldabran tortoises that are now 10 years old, and weigh around 130lbs. They are both male, not clutch-mates, but have lived together since they were hatchlings (6 months old). They are sexually mature, and are still living quite peacefully together. I've NEVER seen any aggression between them...not during eating and not when they both go into the shed for the night. They really seem to like each other. There isn't a dominant one.

So, if they are both male, you keep them together, and don't add a female for them to fight over, chances are good they will live ok together.
 

Albinoboidsetc

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That makes me feel better, hopefully they continue to get along, they are clutchmates and have always been together, so now I will just hope that they are not male and female and that they continue to get along. I really don't want them to breed. I also doubt I will be getting any more of them, I love these two but I believe that 2 is enough for me especially because I never planned to have any. :)
 

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I'm not as experienced as the others here on the forum--I only have Mortimer[He was under a year old and weighed 6oz. when I got him. Your babes look fantastic[for thinking you were doing something wrong]. Their shells are smooth and they seem to be very adjusted. I think with the changes you already have started, you will see a "big" difference in both of them soon. I would just like to add --- do your "changes" gradually [especially since they look pretty good right now]---and enjoy them!
 

Albinoboidsetc

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After some more reading I think that these guys do actually have some pyramiding starting. There are slight valleys between the scutes. :(
 

Yvonne G

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Since your babies are clutch mates, chances are pretty good that they are both the same sex.
 

Tom

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I'd love to see some close ups, but in all the pics you've shown us they look pretty smooth.
Try to get a profile pic with a macro lens. They all look smooth from the top.

My pyramiding theory is this: Pyramiding is caused by growth in the absence of sufficient humidity, moisture and hydration. I used to just say humidity, but now I've added moisture and hydration too, due to what I've learned in the last few months. I'm due to post some more pics of my hatchlings too. We are almost at the 60 day old mark for all of them.

In your case, they haven't grown a lot, and because they were in your reptile room, they probably had a fair amount of humidity anyway. My current adults started out with slow growth like that too. Nothing to worry about. They are near 50 pounds and still growing now.

If you are worried about the pyramiding, then do these four things:
1. Humid substrate. I keep mine pretty wet all the time.
2. Humid hide boxes. Like this: http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-12542.html?highlight=humid+hide+boxes
3. Warm water soak them daily. I do mine twice a day if they've been outside in the heat getting a lot of sunshine.
4. Spray their carapace several times a day with plain water, until its dripping. I do it in their pen and it keeps my substrate good and wet too.

I've tried, with Daisy, to see if you can go too far or too wet with a young sulcata. After two years of it the answer is; no you can't go to far as long as you keep it warm. I have had absolutely no problems whatsoever with her. No URTI or even any hint of it and no shell rot. Just ZERO problems and her new growth is coming in smooth even though she was already badly pyramided when I got her. She lives in downright swampy conditions. A red eared slider would be happy in her tub.

My reptile room humidity stays at around 50-60% all the time and her tub is about 3/4 covered with lexan to keep in the moisture. Its 85-95% all the time in her pen and 99-100% in her humid hide box.

These four things, in addition to a good diet, exercise, sunshine and a little calcium and vitamin supplementation, will grow you a healthy smooth sulcata. (Or two in your case.)
 
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