I just don't get it?

[Alexio]

Its been driving me crazy lately... But it seems like more and more new people come to this forum with preconceived notions or ideas about tortoises and tortoise keeping. I'm not just talking about the "old ways" of keeping them dry , or on sand , or feeding cat food or fruit. But the number of people who are totally fine with sticking an adult redfoot or an adult Russian in a 40 gallon or equivalent with no other housing. Or who want to put two or three tortoises in a tiny tank . I admit i originally wanted get a bunch of tortoises and put them all together and have them be the cutest best friends that there ever were. But i did research on this forum, and found that just because I wanted something didn't make it the best thing to do.
I guess I'm not even sure what my question is. I just feel like the amount o people who come here who don't want to hear any advice or evidence to the contrary is mind boggling.
Imagine sitting through your first day of medical school and going into your doctors office later in the day and try to tell him\her that they are wrong about whatever advice they are giving you because now you've had some tiny bit of knowledge imparted on you. That's how i feel literally every day here watching new members say things like " well i read from many sources that..." Or my other favorite, " well the breeder i got the tortoise from said it was fine \ they did that too" .
I also own many snakes and belong to a very similar forum as this but for snakes. I have to be honest it feels sometimes like there is a night and day difference between how newer people acted there vs how they act here. For example a very common question that comes up with snakes is that they aren't eating. Many times the husbandry is the issue, people with the temps not correct or ironically the snake is in too large of an enclosure (large enclosures can makes snakes feel insecure and not wat to eat). So many times the best advice is to move the snakes to a smaller enclosure and try feeding again later. When that advice is presented to a new person they never respond with things like "well i read this size tank is fine on the internet" or "my friend has snakes they have had for years and they are in this same cage with no problems" . This is a tone i feel a lot of new people here take. I feel like many times people don't come here for advice but just for a pat on the back or just to brag to people who might be more interested in their new tortoise than their facebook friends.
Is the difference that in some cases you have to be sure of something being really wrong before you act? Like the person who comes here a few days in with a few questions who thinks they know everything and leaves in a huff only to return a few weeks later when the tortoise has stopped eating for days or dies.
The part that really churns my stomach is the amount of people who leave the forum angrily, subjecting the tortoise to a sometimes horrible and probably all too often short lived life just because the person was just too arrogant? Or cocky? To take anyone's advice. The number of tortoises blinded by coil uvb bulbs who's owners were too prideful to return to the forum to admit they were wrong is probably more than i want to guess at.
I guess in resolution i ask angrily, why... ?
Is it simply too much bad information over too long of a time? Too many people have been doing too many things "wrong" for so long the few people with the "right" knowledge are trying to cut the lawn with scissors? Or is it they are just not astute? They cannot see the harm they are causing or the signs that some people can see that something is wrong with their tortoise?
Is it a problem with how tortoises present themselves perhaps? Dogs and cats are conditioned to whine, bark, purr, or growl to "help" give clues to humans and other animals as to their disposition. Tortoises don't makes much for noise unless their squeaking which generally isn't good. Do people try to apply too much non applicable information? Like because i can have 3 dogs and two cats i can have 5 tortoises together and let them run on the floor?
I digress. I guess this just drives me crazy, so instead of attacking people individually i just wanted to toss it out there . I am curious as to others opinions and whether anyone thinks I'm way off base here.

 

[cmacusa3]

Great post! The one that has been driving me crazy lately is letting a tortoise roam the house with or without other pets. There are so many dangers with it and not to mention the fact they go to the bathroom wherever they want.

 

[Big Charlie]

I agree, great post! I think it is a combination of the things you mention. Some don't want to be told they are doing things wrong. Since they didn't ask specifically about something, they feel that we are overstepping our bounds when we make suggestions that they change something.

I have to say that some of it is generational. When I was raising my children, there was an emphasis in instilling confidence in kids, which sometimes resulted in people who think they can never be wrong.

I'm also a member of other forums and I see some of this attitude there too, probably not as much as here.

On the other hand, even if they are coming here for advice, they probably have a right to be skeptical. How can you expect them to believe that the advice received here is better than that they get from a pet store, a book, a friend, or even some vets?

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I'm on a few other forums. Motorcycles mostly and we fight all of the time because everyone knows it all.
With tortoises I'm afraid that very few owners knew what a big deal it would be to raise them when they bought them and get discouraged quickly when they learn that most everything they are doing is wrong. Everything they bought will have to go into the trash and that they will not have enough space to truly accommodate an adult tortoise habitat.
So they want to go into denial and keep the aquarium and the wrong light and let them roam the house because they have no yard. Etc.
There are hundreds of us here (Thousands?) We are from all over the entire world. This isn't just some elite group from one place. These are keepers with the latest information. With stories to tell so that no one needs to go through what they have. Right here.

 

[Jacqui]

I think one big thing we all forget is that we all live in different locations and where we live can change how we need to care for our tortoises. What I do in Nebraska, may not carry over to CA. What works in northern CA may not work or be needed in southern CA.

Then again we tend to lump them all as tortoises, forgetting that a leopard is not a hingeback. Or a Bells hingeback is not an Erosa hingeback. That's before you even think hatchling or adult. Then even more, keep in mind each animal is unique. Just as with each person.

Different things do work, no one way works for all.

Also how we respond to new folks makes a huge difference in how they listen and respond back. To often in my mind, we are harshand critical. It's the catching flies with sugar or vinegar approach, that can make them slowly change their ways and see where you are coming from, not the attack mode.

Folks who may have blown their entire budget on items we know won't work well, do better with slow improvements they can afford. Baby step them towards the finish line.

Keep in mind, often our first real experiences with tortoises are seeing them in pet shops and zoos, neither of which can house animals as we think is correct due to their reasoning for having them in the first place. We tend to forget that their care may be "right" for those types of situations, but perhaps not right for a pet owner or breeder. It is human nature though to believe those professionals or the breeders we delt with over some strangers on the net.

Then you have those who really do not want to listen and there is nothing you can do for them except give them the information and let it go.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

It's the dog thing that drives me crazy at this current time.
I'm sure it'll be something else next week.
"But my dog is so sweet, he loves Sheldon, they are such friends! "
CRUNCH! CRUNCH! CRUNCH!
Goodness.

 

[Yvonne G]

Two things - First, quite a few new members are very accepting of our information and quite willing to listen and make changes. And next, when dealing with the know-it-all personality, like the new member yesterday who left in a huff, we have to gentle our advice and try to not be accusatory or know-it-all back at them.

It's hard sometimes, to remember we're here to help the tortoise and not babysit the keeper.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Two things - First, quite a few new members are very accepting of our information and quite willing to listen and make changes. And next, when dealing with the know-it-all personality, like the new member yesterday who left in a huff, we have to gentle our advice and try to not be accusatory or know-it-all back at them.

It's hard sometimes, to remember we're here to help the tortoise and not babysit the keeper.

But we sometimes have to babysit the keeper in order to help the tortoise.

 

[Tom]

I've pondered this one a lot. This is another instance of "The Golden Rule" getting me into occasional trouble. I wish there was a forum like this back in 1979 when I was starting out with Chelonia. I wish there were a group of dedicated, experienced individuals that would have told me what I was doing wrong and helped me to make fewer mistakes along the way. Alas, not everyone wants that. It seems so many of the people that are the subject of this thread want to be told whatever it is they want to hear. They want things to be easy. They don't want to have to re-do what they've already done based on the advice of some perceived expert, be it a vet, breeder, internet expert or even a pet shop employee. Sometimes they will keep asking the same question until someone, anyone, tells them what they want to hear.

For me personally, I get dozens of "Thank You" messages for every person who gets offended with me. Should I change what I do because of that one person, when what I do seems to be helping so many others, AND helping the tortoises of so many others? There are a lot of personality types and varied life experiences out there in the world. There are a lot of people who are simply messed up, anti-social, or can't function like "normal" people do. Rather than try to cater to these oddballs, I try to help the masses of "normal" people.

I also see the dilemma that Big Charlie brought up too. How does a new person know who to listen to? He/she might have a veterinarian, a trained paid professional, telling them their tortoise needs a vitamin injection to make everything all better. And they pay this person hundreds of dollars for this advice. Then they come here and a few people on the internet tell them their vet, with all his/her years of vet school, is wrong and somehow we know better? Same story with the tortoise breeder who has been doing it "this way" for 30 years. Of course we all know that breeder's results are a dismal failure, but what in the world should make our word here more credible than a breeder with 30 years of experience? I understand when people balk for this reason. I would too. All we can do is take whatever opportunity we get and try to explain. Some will be receptive and want to learn and some will simply shut us out. I've decided that all I can do is try. When I succeed, I am happy. When I fail, I evaluate what went down, try to learn from it, and try to do better next time. This trial and error approach has given me methods to reach people that work better and ways of explaining things that seem connect with more of the audience. After having the same argument 20 times, a person should learn how to defeat all avenues of opposition to their argument, assuming their argument is valid and based on real world experience. You can't defeat the argument of an unreasonable person who digs their heels in and won't be swayed no matter what. In those cases, I say what I'm going to say anyway for the benefit of the hundreds of other people reading the thread who might be willing to listen to reason. I might not sway the individual I am arguing with, but lots of other people might be swayed if what I'm saying is reasonable, correct and explained well.

I give it my best knowing that some percentage of the time I'm going to fail. I'm not afraid to fail, because the successes make it all worth it.