I have eggs! Again!

Tank'sMom

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Not sure how many of you might remember last month when my recently acquired female laid an awful mess of a nest, breaking all but 4 of the eggs. I currently have 3 "maybe's" in the incubator.
Today she laid again! :D
This time she did a much better job of digging her nest and we did a much better job of not disturbing her!
I think we have success! I walked by earlier today presenting not to notice her, just going about my business headed to the garden... I definitely caught a glimpse of some nice pearly white balls in a much deeper nest!
At this point she has covered them up and so I went to take a peek, finally, she is still shuffling dirt around.
So should I dig them up tonight???
ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1462926387.680574.jpg
 

Tank'sMom

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Question... I do have an incubator, but I'm just curious if keeping them where they are might be an option???
Is it possible to build a breathable cover over the nest and let nature take its course?
Right now our temps are 90's during the day, 70's at night, sometimes warmer. And humidity is 100% pretty much all the time. Ugh.
Would that be a possibility???
@Tom???
 

Tank'sMom

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Our weather today:
ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1462927420.108010.jpg
Right now, at almost 8pm. And it's highs in the mid 90's the rest of the week.
What about rain???
Is this a bad idea?
 

wellington

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You wouldn't have to build anything, unless you have critters that would dig them up. Kelly has left some be left in the ground, but it seems to take longer for them to hatch, from what I remember seeing about them being left. @tortadise who is also in Texas might be able to help.
 

Tank'sMom

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Thanks! I've heard @Tom say they can stay for awhile before digging them up. I'm not digging them up tonight. I'd love to get some advice from anyone who has done it before!
Right now I placed a heavy wire grate over the nest, just in case.
I'd like to get more input, info, advice, knowledge, etc. before I go and dig them up.
I have a friend who is about 2 hrs away who does not incubate his. Not sure of his success rate, as I think he is a bit .... dishonest? But he has produced.
If I'm in the right climate, can it be done? And am I in the right climate??? Does it normally rain while they are incubating in Africa? I could bury a thermo/hygrometer into the nest....
Help?
 

tortadise

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If there laid this time of year they will hatch in ground no issue. One issue though is to keep the soil somewhat moist so they can actually dig out. I'd dig them up tonight. Shouldn't be an issue tomorrow though. They're very good at compacting the soil back when covering them up so be cautious when digging them out.
 

Tom

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I know they can stay in the ground here for months, at any time of year, until I get around to digging them up and incubating. But we get hardly any rain here ever. Not sure if the nest would flood where you are. They can hatch in the ground here too, but the babies do better when I hatch them in an incubator and start them well hydrated.

I have two SA leopard clutches in the ground right now too.
 

Tank'sMom

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@Tom, I'm curious, you've said that before... about leaving them in the ground and then incubating them. You said you'll start several clutches that were laid at different times, as I understood it, so that would hatch at the same time? Or did I misunderstand that? I'm wondering if they are "dormant" in the ground? Or why the timing would change because of the nest vs the incubator?
I left them where they are for now. I'm working today (12 hr shift, it's dark when I get home) so if I do dig them up, it'll be tomorrow.
I'm very afraid to "mess them up" during the digging process. Break them or disorient them. Any tips?
What's the max time you've left them in the ground? Have you (or anyone else) had much success with leaving them in the ground? What conditions would need to be met?
I live in a very hot, humid area. I'm concerned about the rain. We do get heavy rains during hurricane season. So it's probably not a good idea, I'm very interested though.
 

Tom

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@Tom, I'm curious, you've said that before... about leaving them in the ground and then incubating them. You said you'll start several clutches that were laid at different times, as I understood it, so that would hatch at the same time? Or did I misunderstand that? I'm wondering if they are "dormant" in the ground? Or why the timing would change because of the nest vs the incubator?
I left them where they are for now. I'm working today (12 hr shift, it's dark when I get home) so if I do dig them up, it'll be tomorrow.
I'm very afraid to "mess them up" during the digging process. Break them or disorient them. Any tips?
What's the max time you've left them in the ground? Have you (or anyone else) had much success with leaving them in the ground? What conditions would need to be met?
I live in a very hot, humid area. I'm concerned about the rain. We do get heavy rains during hurricane season. So it's probably not a good idea, I'm very interested though.

One of the unique things about my climate here is our cold nights. Even in summer, when day time highs are 110+, the nights still drop to 65. This time of year when daytime highs are in the low 80s most days, night temps are in the low 50s.

Eggs cannot develop at these cold temps. In winter, days get 65ish and night are in the 30s. My sulcatas start laying in Dec or Jan and stop in June when it gets consistently above the low to mid 90s every day. When day time highs are near 100 and night time lows only drop into the 60s, the average ground temps, at tortoise nest depth, are in the 80's it takes 3 solid months of this for them to develop and hatch. This is why it doesn't matter if they lay in December or early June. Those eggs won't start to develop in the ground until late June at the earliest. They usually hatch late September or October. Sometimes November even. The cold doesn't hurt the eggs, and they won't begin developing until they get consistently warm temps, like what I provide in my incubator. So, my eggs can sit in the ground as long as I need them too. We don't have rain to worry about, and the predators don't come into my ranch at night, so my eggs are safe and sound right where Mom left them.

Advice for digging them up:
1. Be careful.
2. Don't turn them.

HA! I thought that was funny… Seriously though, you can dig through the first few inches pretty quickly. Then I use a one finger scratching technique to carefully reach the first egg. Its time consuming, but not difficult. Over time you will get a feel for how deep the eggs are and when you need to slow your digging. Then mark an "X" on the top of each egg with a dull pencil BEFORE you remove the egg from the nest, and always keep the "X" up.
 

Tank'sMom

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One of the unique things about my climate here is our cold nights. Even in summer, when day time highs are 110+, the nights still drop to 65. This time of year when daytime highs are in the low 80s most days, night temps are in the low 50s.

Eggs cannot develop at these cold temps. In winter, days get 65ish and night are in the 30s. My sulcatas start laying in Dec or Jan and stop in June when it gets consistently above the low to mid 90s every day. When day time highs are near 100 and night time lows only drop into the 60s, the average ground temps, at tortoise nest depth, are in the 80's it takes 3 solid months of this for them to develop and hatch. This is why it doesn't matter if they lay in December or early June. Those eggs won't start to develop in the ground until late June at the earliest. They usually hatch late September or October. Sometimes November even. The cold doesn't hurt the eggs, and they won't begin developing until they get consistently warm temps, like what I provide in my incubator. So, my eggs can sit in the ground as long as I need them too. We don't have rain to worry about, and the predators don't come into my ranch at night, so my eggs are safe and sound right where Mom left them.

Advice for digging them up:
1. Be careful.
2. Don't turn them.

HA! I thought that was funny… Seriously though, you can dig through the first few inches pretty quickly. Then I use a one finger scratching technique to carefully reach the first egg. Its time consuming, but not difficult. Over time you will get a feel for how deep the eggs are and when you need to slow your digging. Then mark an "X" on the top of each egg with a dull pencil BEFORE you remove the egg from the nest, and always keep the "X" up.
That's so strange!!! So they can cease development for a period of time and still turn out ok after that time, once incubated??? Fascinating!
I'm planning to go digging in a few hours, when it cools down a bit, it's very hot here!!!
Is it normal for her to stay at the nest site? She's been laying there next to it all day. Almost like she's "on guard"! Suppose I should put her back in her pen while I do the digging. My snakes used to be very protective of their eggs, but they actually incubate them. Do tortoises have a protective instinct towards their nest???
 

Tank'sMom

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Also, I don't believe any mating took place between her and Tank, between this clutch and the last.
Would these eggs still be fertile from the previous male???
 

Tank'sMom

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So I got them out. They were not in great shape. Almost all have at least one small dent and varying degrees of cracks, and 3 were totally broken.
It was hard to get them out! She sure compacted that dirt hard!ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1463105478.387087.jpgImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1463105491.692050.jpgImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1463105510.999180.jpgImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1463105530.294551.jpgImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1463105546.882380.jpgImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1463105559.472421.jpgImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1463105573.409116.jpg
Post-excavation
I had 13 total. 9 went into the incubator. 3 were totally destroyed. , one was "sunken in", and the rest were put into individual containers in the incubator.
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ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1463105719.148071.jpg
I'm finding that the "individual container" thing is a good idea! This was the result of one of last months eggs
ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1463105801.406076.jpg
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I had another that was very badly dented and cracked, from last month (4/7), that I decided to trash, BUT it seems that there was some development! This gives me hope that my little cracks and dents may not be a huge concern?
I opened it just to see. The membrane was totally intact. ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1463105963.983670.jpg
And I could clearly see an "umbilicus" or attachment of some sort! It's hard to see in the picture, but I could feel it! I wish I had a before shot, this egg was very badly damaged, but still developing! Not sure what quality of tortoise it could have produced...
ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1463106114.388665.jpg
So, I will carry on. With my batch of damaged eggs. And just keep hoping for the best!!!
(Bravo to all who do this regularly! That digging is difficult!)
Let's see what we get from Ms. Tonka!
ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1463106273.459822.jpg
 

Tom

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Sulcatas can retain sperm, but fertility lowers with each clutch. I, and other keepers, have noticed anecdotally that fertility usually drops to zero within 4-6 months without a male. In contrast, leopards can go 5 years and still retain decent fertility.

With that many dented eggs, it sounds like you need to up the calcium intake of your new girl. I would supplement here with some calcium carbonate powder two or three times a week.
 

Tank'sMom

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Will do @Tom! I'm not really sure still why Tank has not shown any interest in her! Nada. Any ideas to get the "romance" flowing?
 

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